Mary Jane Dykeman: Thinking About Solutions, Not Answers

Imagery for Episode 78 of Healthcare Change Makers including an image of our guest, Mary Jane Dykeman

(Access show transcript) Mary Jane Dykeman from INQ Law sits down with HIROC CEO Catherine Gaulton for a deep dive on the intersection between technology, the future of healthcare, and risk prevention.

Summary

As a health lawyer, Mary Jane Dykeman, partner at INQ Law has a strong pulse on health information, privacy, and AI, believing that these factors are critical to the future of healthcare. This pulse allows for a unique and tailored perspective on preventing risk and strengthening privacy.  

In this episode of Healthcare Change Makers, Mary Jane taps into her dual expertise to share insight into some of the biggest influences on the future of healthcare, finding the balance between privacy and AI, and the risk processes that improve healthcare. 

Mentioned in this Episode

Transcript 

Imagine you could step inside the minds of Canada's healthcare leaders, glimpse their greatest fears, strongest drivers, and what makes them tick. Welcome to Healthcare Changemakers, a podcast where we talk to leaders about the joys and challenges of driving change and working with partners to create the safest healthcare system.

Philip De Souza: Hey listeners, it's Philip here from HIROC. Hope your day is going well. Welcome to another edition of Healthcare Changemakers. Today you're in for a treat as my co-host will be none other than Catherine Gaulton, HIROC's CEO. Hi, Catherine.

Catherine Gaulton: Hi Philip. How are you doing?

Philip De Souza: Good, good. And Catherine will be interviewing our good friend Mary Jane Dykeman. Before we get into that, I thought I'd flip the script and ask Catherine and Mary Jane a couple questions. So starting off both of you, you both are lawyers, obviously Catherine, you're our CEO, but do you remember your first job in law? Catherine, I'll start with you. Do you remember your first job in law?

Catherine Gaulton: It's interesting when I just finished law school and the person who was to be my principal called me and said, "Do you want to come before you even start work to this court case that's going on?" Because as you know, lots of things in litigation settle and this was one that was actually going to court. It was an amazing case of a situation where an otherwise healthy man had been bitten by his friend's dog really while they were kind of playing. It wasn't an aggressive dog at all and he died and it was because he had had his spleen removed years before.

And of course that really didn't come up in the context of being treated for a dog bite. And there was one article, New England Journal of Medicine that talked about this as a risk. And so it really wasn't kind of standard of care, but you can imagine how that was and just how it got you into such really interesting medical evidence in these tragic cases and a true picture of how healthcare and the law really do interact, particularly in our medical legal environment. So that was my very first interaction.

Philip De Souza: Wow. And how about you Mary Jane?

Mary Jane Dykeman: Well, it's interesting. I've got a range of experience, but my father was a lawyer in Northern New Brunswick, and so he built a law from very early on. I think when I got into law school, I might've been 25 or 26 when I started, I remember saying to him, "I'm heading off to law school." Not a surprise to him. And he wasn't judging, but he said, "Oh..." I was, I don't know, 22 or 23 when he took over a practice of several other local lawyers and he simply rolled up his sleeves in a town where you did everything. It might be criminal law one day, health law the next, state's law, family law, whatever it happened to be, corporate, commercial. And I had a chance to work with him in an admin position. I think I was 17 at the time. And let me tell you, that was the basis for my own practice, both from an entrepreneurial sort of stake and then also just learning how to run an office as well.

And so that may be the first piece of it. And then my actual first formal job was I articled at the Ministry of Health Legal Services branch. I was actually there as a summer student prior to that. And what I'll say is I remember very vividly being their second choice. I was so excited because they were doing everything long-term care, public hospitals, regulated health professions, the labs, you name it, everything was happening and I really wanted the summer job. And someone else had applied and they were in law school as well, but they had been a clinician in their first career. So I just remember thinking, do I call and tell them, but I'm still coming back. And so I did. I thought I'm going to pick up the phone and just say, even if I didn't get it for summer, I'm going to be back to apply for articling. 

As it turned out, the original person turned it down, they went somewhere else and I got the job. And so that was the launch of everything that I'm doing today.

Philip De Souza: Very cool. And before Catherine gets into the questions, I thought I'd ask you a question 'cause I like start off with these fun ones. We know you work a lot. We were just talking about how you have some deadlines and you'll be off on vacation. You want to get a lot of work done before that. So I guess the question is do you have a life? Do you have any passion projects?

Mary Jane Dykeman: I think I do have a life. I mean I did grow up with my dad working in that manner and my mom was a teacher, so she also worked very hard in a two-career family. But at the end of the day I've raised a couple of excellent kids who are young adults and I try to stay healthy. That's something I guess my dad taught me that you better take that in stride. So he always made time for it. And I try to... The advent of the standing desk, do I use it as much as I should? Probably not. And especially through COVID you probably experienced the same thing. Lots of long hours, more isolation, sitting. Sitting is what everybody was doing throughout. But a passion project I have right now that is I guess it's work-related, but I'm very excited to be part of something called the Undiagnosed Hackathon.

And this was launched by a Swedish foundation, the Wilhelm Foundation. My good friends Mikk and Helene Cederroth put this together. They've been working on it for a very long time. But the Undiagnosed Hackathon itself launched a couple of years ago. I was able to lend a hand, I'm allowed to say that. And then I couldn't go the first year and the second year, which was last summer, I went to Holland, to Nijmegen to be part of it. 

And I just have to say to see healthcare come together in this great crowdsourcing to try to find diagnoses for kids with undiagnosed disease, you have geneticists coming in from all over the world, the bioinformatics types industry. To watch it in real time was unlike anything I've seen. So it's a very exciting project. And this fall will be at Mayo Clinic. They are the destination of choice for 2025 and thinking ahead to where it could go next year. But really that's that cross section of people... And being a data and health lawyer in the room, maybe I'm not the one finding the diagnosis, but it's really exciting. It's really great work.

Philip De Souza: Oh, very cool. Okay, I'm going to pass it over to Catherine to move the interview along. Over to you Catherine.

Catherine Gaulton: Thanks, Philip. Already 20 areas that we could dig a little deeper on and be really wowed with all you do, Mary Jane. But to start, I'd really like the audience to be fully introduced to you. You're very young of course, but you've been influential in a huge number of areas of healthcare and of course you're a lawyer. So tell us a bit about that and that sort of intersection of law and healthcare and how that works for you.

Mary Jane Dykeman: Yeah, I love the stuff that I'm privileged to do really. I'm really curious. I'm always incredibly excited when some of these things happen and you think, wow, how lucky are all of we to work in an area that has really developed over time and there's such important components of it. I know we'll have a chance to talk. I don't mean important because I'm in it, but just I'm thinking about HIROC and the way it has grown, and I'd love to come back to that as part of the conversation. But I mean, today I'm a partner at a Toronto firm called INQ Law, consulting arm, consulting. We were originally DDO Health Law, it's the same firm. And we expanded as the practice started to include some really deep offerings on data law, strategy, governance, machine learning. And I know we'll talk about artificial intelligence as well. So again, I think of myself as a health and data lawyer and I've had good fortune to spend... I was trying to add up the years sort of cumulatively of how many years did I spend in this time in-house at a handful of... The Toronto teaching hospitals.

And so those are great places to learn a lot and to help wherever possible. So grateful on that side of it. And again, I come from a place where I think if you are going to practice law, A, wrap yourself around an area that you love and just go do it. Law can be anything that you want it to be, and if you can attach it in the way... It doesn't mean that every day is exciting. And I wake up curious and motivated. I'm sure there are days where you just think, wow, there's a lot to do. But it really is, it's an exciting time and a very lovely community that has grown over time. My husband said one time years ago, "Is there enough health law work for everyone?" The more, the merrier. And I love to see some of the young lawyers and newer firms stepping in and stepping up to take it on.

Maybe someday there will be no work because it'll all be figured out. But I'm sure as HIROC might say, "There's lots to be done still." So this is what we want to see, that people are really passionate about it. I did an undergrad degree in French and philosophy, and so philosophy doesn't necessarily sound as though it's on the path to health law. But at the same time I discovered... I did all the classic philosophy stuff and then I really doubled down on bioethics and where do healthcare ethics and law meet, which really was a pass to law school and it came to mind I am part of initiative at the U of T Joint Center for Bioethics. It's called the AMS-Fitzgerald Fellowship. Jennifer Gibson and her team have a group of quite incredible AI fellows, and the first cohort graduated last week. So again, and I know we'll come back and talk more fully about data in AI, but even to have that type of academic program, very applied group as well, not just sort of theoretical about what could this look like in healthcare as we use this data.

But it was exciting just to see the first cohort finish up the two-year program. The second cohort already has their sleeves rolled up and we'll see. But that to me was a bit of a full circle moment. How do you get to health and law? And so I'm actually going to turn it back to you, Catherine, because I think we met some years ago. I remember at least a meeting, maybe it was a bar association thing in Nova Scotia and you came because you were in a role quite prominently in that province. So that was before you came to take the CEO role. So I guess I'll turn it over to you to ask, when you first set out in law, did you have any idea that you'd find yourself in healthcare? And HIROC's a leading national organization, voice of reason, in my opinion. So what brought you to health law? How did that path look?

Catherine Gaulton: Yeah, no, mine's a bit... It's interesting, Mary Jane, I was a nurse before I-

Mary Jane Dykeman: You got the job. At the ministry.

Catherine Gaulton: Job. And so it's kind of interesting. My parents would introduce me and they'd say, "Oh, what does she do?" And my mother would say, "Well, she's a lawyer, but she used to be a nurse." As if that was the saving grace. And of course it is in so many ways. For me, this was a natural progression though I practiced corporate law before I got back into health law. And of course health law is a passion for me. And quality and safety have been a passion for me coming from the nursing. And so many of the twists and turns of my career leading insurance companies, even as early as 1993 and '96 in British Columbia was about how we used what we could learn from the system in order to make care better going forward.

And look, I practiced corporate law. I practiced as a lawyer for workers' comp. I practiced as a senior solicitor in the province of Nova Scotia and then inside a healthcare organization where not too long in the brilliant CEO said, "Since you have or you intend to have such a voice in relation to quality and safety, how about you add that to the legal portfolio?" And so I think law and healthcare have just always naturally come together for me and then insurance of course. Being in British Columbia and that being a bit of a natural job route for me in 1993 meant that insurance was there as well. So when the HIROC piece asked for someone who knows healthcare and can learn insurance or someone who knows insurance and can learn healthcare with the ad, it kind of spoke to me pretty quickly. So I think that connect between how law can be used to leverage improvement in healthcare has just been a natural piece. And an insurance seems to have just come along with that with its focus on risk and safety. So lots of things came together for me.

Mary Jane Dykeman: That's pretty impressive because it's been quite the path and it's almost as though it was purpose built for you. But I take nothing away as lawyers make their way through careers and maybe the comment being, I'm not sure anyone goes in thinking they will do one thing forever. Again, you stepped up and looked these opportunities in the eye and shaped them. So it's pretty exceptional.

Catherine Gaulton: No, well, it's been fun. It continues to be fun, as you know. I know you're having lots of fun still as you do the work you do. And even with that, it's interesting because of course you're very much a lawyer and so brilliant in it, but you've also really become an expert in healthcare and through both your in-house time, but also outside of that context. And so I'm really interested because while you've been providing service in the healthcare side, I also find you to be a big observer in this regard. So I'm interested in what you've seen. What have you seen as the most significant changes over the years and what you see as perhaps some of the things that are going to be the biggest influencers going forward?

Mary Jane Dykeman: It's an interesting question because on the one hand, I don't want to lead with something that's more challenging, but we know there is a constant, and that is the pressure on the various healthcare organizations. I think there've been some great strides. When we think of healthcare now, we don't necessarily think only of hospitals and doctors. And the legislation has sort of followed to make it not all about that either. We have so many, as I said, exceptional teaching hospitals, community hospitals, physicians, and many, many other professions working in private practice. The practice settings have changed the way groups come together. We've got very robust community mental health and addiction agencies, community health centers, family health teams and other... 

Obviously across Canada similar but maybe with different names, type groups coming together to deliver. But I will say, I think I am an observer and I hope I am a problem solver, which also sounds a bit negative, right?

To say, "Oh, there's a problem." But I've said many times, especially in the past couple of years, "Let's think about solutions, not answers." And we sort of made that a bit of a mantra when I was in-house, again, good fortune to spend a couple of years at CAMH, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Sarah Downey's leadership team. There's a lot. There's a lot for these groups. Shout out to the frontline staff, they show up daily, the system keeps moving. But those senior leadership teams, the CEOs, the boards, I think they had to really double down. The pressure has not eased well. We saw COVID was a whole special set of things to manage and keep afloat and advance. But there are so many reporting obligations. There are new statutory requirements coming right, left and center. There are the ongoing financial things.

So I don't know if that's... Maybe when we say the biggest influencer, we're looking for something sort of exciting. I have great faith in the leadership of the health system. I think it really takes a special group. Many people could be working in many other positions as well. And it's a very dedicated group of people across the sector, across the country. And again, it remains challenging, but I love the fact that people are coming together more and creating collaborations and deciding in some cases, well, I don't need to be the lead of that. This other group can do that. I guess that's where I pull it back to the positive as well, that we're just out of necessity being very creative. So there's that. And then of course you won't be surprised that a second influencer from my perspective is data. And I made a note to myself saying it's a big one.

So the opportunities with the data we have, every healthcare organization is holding a lot of data about clients, patients, residents, whatever services, health or health adjacent that we're delivering. Do we know what we have? Is it good, clean quality data? I think we've made a lot of strides in bringing it into fewer systems. And then once we have it, I think I'm going to flatter the sector here to say I am pretty confident we can get our arms wrapped around the cybersecurity piece. I mean, it is a pressing issue as given the work that HIROC does and the supports that you provide around privacy, which again is where I started my career working on health privacy legislation. I remember the first time I was in a meeting about it, I was thinking, wow, what, I really want to do this for any length of time?

And it turns out, I guess the answer is yes, but it's the opportunity of the data if we do this well and how is it that we're going to put together that plan, taking care of the data of the people who gave it to us in trust and really using it to improve the health system. I think it's exponential. As I said, I know we'll talk about AI, but from my point of view that privacy and legal shouldn't be the big red stop sign on advancing and innovating. And it's very much a possibility if we do it well and obviously with good guardrails as well. And that's all of us. That data sits out there about all of us. So we have a bit of an imperative to use it well and responsibly and make those advances.

Catherine Gaulton: Absolutely. And I would say my experience of you is not as, well, problem solver, but as a solution facilitator. And that really has shone through, I think in your work with leaders and with our frontline people where they are of course the innovators and they are the solution developers. And your role I've seen has been really that solution facilitator. I agree with you on the data and on that point, AI is out there. There's a whole question around what that means. Your focus on health information, privacy, AI and all things really technological in relation to healthcare is so critical in this place.

A bit of a worry that I have is this sort of either or premise where the idea or some of the thought is, well, if we're going to focus on privacy, then we're going to lose the power of AI. And I'm just really interested in your thoughts on that because there's a big balance to be achieved there. But what would you say to those who say, "Well, if we're just going to be all about privacy, then we're not going to be able to have the benefits of what might come from something like AI"?

Mary Jane Dykeman: I love this question and I think it's fair to say privacy is in place for very good reasons. We need it. It is the price of entry. And I do think increasingly governments and public bodies are thinking about the fact that they hold this data. We don't want anyone to be paralyzed by privacy. And successive privacy commissioners have set that. I mean, there are very legitimate reasons that we need to use data in a certain way. Now I know we're going to talk about artificial intelligence itself and that I would say we've probably been working in AI for I'd say maybe seven years. And one of my partners, Carol Piovesan, and I met I guess in 2019, and she had also really doubled down. She was working at McCarthy's at the time. And when we put our heads together to think about what might this look like, we got a lot of traction, we did a lot of work. COVID hit, and of course that changed a lot of things for many on that front.

But I'll tell you one driver has also been generative AI. And that is one where suddenly with ChatGPT and other large language models, you realize, oh, well, it's not going to wait for the regulatory piece, the law and everything to catch up. Suddenly there are simple tools available globally. It's kind of a leveler on that front. And so people move pretty quickly. And where there might've been a pause through COVID, it doesn't mean that AI wasn't on the move. It's been on the move for decades, but it really was a bit of a game changer as well where organizations said, okay, now we need to figure out how do we handle it. For companies advising all of those other companies, it became an issue as well. 

So I'm still confident that we can get there. I don't think the people who are saying that to you are short-sighted.

I think it's to the contrary, but I do think that we have to get back to that moral imperative to use the data well, we're going to have to be careful in taking those steps. We've got an unprecedented opportunity to get this right. It doesn't have to be perfect. And nothing in healthcare is perfect. We don't have the resources for perfection. We have the resources and I don't think we need that. We need common sense. What is the graceful solution? What is the compliant thing that we need to do? And we need to recognize, look in the eye, the risk that we know and then come back because there's some risks that we're not going to know today. And the great news is Canada is a standout. And I know occasionally you'll see the headlines about we stand to fall behind on research and innovation and AI development and everything else, but to the extent that we have the doers sitting here, and when I mean here, I do mean across Canada.

There's some great examples. I look at the work of Dr. Muhammad Mamdani, whom as you know is the VP data science and advanced analytics at Unity Health here in Toronto based at St. Mike's. The number of use cases that he and his team have been able to conceptualize and then execute on, I mean, it's remarkable. We stack up extremely well. We exceed some of the other international jurisdictions, the large data platforms establishing, and this is of course happening across Canada. Do we to have some rigor once everyone starts to pool data for secondary use? And AI is being harnessed, but it can meet with the opportunity to create the brain health data bank. You've got other groups like GEMINI, Fahad Razak doing this work. And the thing that I love about it's maybe it's a Canadian thing, but there is a generosity, there is a real push to share what we've done.

It was on site recently at the Ontario Brain Institute, and that's an excellent data platform that sort of set out to break down the silos across different brain conditions and really get the research done. And I think it's probably 12 or 13 years in we have this. And those models have been shared in many ways. And so I am a big fan of let's not reinvent the wheel. Let's be creative and innovative, but let's not reinvent and let's stay on top of what we know of the developments. If we wait for legislation on AI, we won't be doing anything. We'll be sitting in a corner. But I think there's a lot of commitment to do it responsibly, but to do it, period. I guess that's my take on it. And even the grant funders are starting to push money in the genetics and genomics field. You look at Holland Bloorview and Julia Hanigsberg and team sort of landing a $200 million grant, and it's with peers, with sick kids, with others. It's just remarkable. What an exciting time to be working in this area.

Catherine Gaulton: Absolutely agree. It's interesting, I wanted to ask you about your lens on risk for this and generally. You have this issue where risk is seen as the breaks, putting the brakes on initiatives as opposed to a facilitator of a thoughtful way forward. And I know that's been your life about balancing that kind of excitement for things like AI against what will be its failure if you don't do it right. So just really interested in your thoughts on that and how we play those things off.

Mary Jane Dykeman: Yeah, I guess I would add to your point, Catherine, I would add, when I mentioned the big red stop sign, which is often privacy and legal are slowing us down, they're impeding us, I want to counter that with very practical no, in fact, we're enabling and driving and that's what it will be. So I think back to being a young lawyer, when I first started out, I had a wonderful opportunity to start writing and publishing. And I guess the comment to any new lawyer is, especially when new things are happening, anyone can step in and learn it and put it out in the universe. Things are very different today. You don't have to go to mainstream publishing to get on LinkedIn and have an opinion and really create an area. So back in the day, we were standing up the Canadian health law practice manual, but risk management in Canadian healthcare was almost my first foray.

I was asked would I run with this? And of course, get a really great advisory board to back it up. And it was Eleanor Morton HIROC's VP risk management at the time who came onto the board, probably our great friend John Morris introduced us and we became, well, literally lifelong friends up until she died about 10 years ago. And that's how I came to know HIROC. And the fact that HIROC had this risk lens already, the fact that you have the data lens and everything else today is also excellent. But in the day, it was very forward-thinking. And I don't think of risk as just another way of saying you can't do what you want to do. I think we've got to change that narrative. And I know your risk department has grown significantly and you have slices of it that go to different parts of the health sector.

I just think from a risk management point of view, if it's changed, it's because it's broader today, it's more important that we have that lens. Healthcare organizations are taking on some really extended expansive roles. They're the consummate multi-taskers, new partnerships, collaborations. It's wonderful. There's a better together. And as I said, not needing to be the lead, but the programs are expanding. We're building bricks and mortar, as you know in different places. [inaudible 00:31:56] 25 year redevelopment of the campus and a lot of fanfare. And we see that in the community, CMHA York, [inaudible 00:32:06] building a mental health center, people are putting up long-term care.
And so I guess we keep coming back to HIROC and saying, "Okay, we want to do more and more and more and more. Where are you in sort of covering us off?" But I like the risk management piece because I think it's very proactive. We're not waiting for something to go wrong. We're at least being thoughtful and considerate up front, then hopefully finding what I've always called, what is the graceful path through, what could we predict may happen, how can we be strategic, how can we enable people to get it done with the risk tolerance that they're happy with? There will never be no risk in healthcare, period. So I just think that's the angle I would place on risk.

Catherine Gaulton: Yeah, no, absolutely. I agree. As you think about this and you think about the healthcare system, what are you optimistic about? I agree with you fully around our people give us every reason to be optimistic. And I think generally some of the things you've indicated are very appreciative of what we do have here. And so just generally what keeps you really going and thinking this is a great space to be adding your talents to?

Mary Jane Dykeman: Well, one thing I will comment on is I think we've got a more engaged public, and we don't necessarily add the public in as an afterthought. And I'm not saying that that's been the case of the past, but there's so much more opportunity now. People are connected. There's social media, people know probably more about the rights today within the health system. There are different places that people can go. Because I do a lot of that sort of risk management, we've got to get in a huddle and figure out what's the path through. And I always think, okay, what do we need to do today? But what's something we would do later? When we put on the hat potentially of that person, what do they want in the system? So I think it's a good thing if someone is raising and being an advocate and everything else, because systems will change.

I mean, obviously there are boundaries, right? Advocacy isn't meant to be abusive, but really there's a whole narrative of ensuring that people do have that voice. I'll say the same thing with data. We need to make sure that we really do include the people whose data it is. Now, does that mean that everything will be consented to? Not necessarily. There's a lot that we need to unpack with it. So I think that's an excellent development. I'm really excited about some of the... Even the startups that are coming out of the wisdom and the big brains in the system as well. I had an opportunity to chair the board of a group called Episign, which is a London health Sciences startup. And different groups are doing some really great work to really showcase the developments and the innovation and the intellectual property and keeping it here in Ontario and in Canada more broadly.

So I think that there's a real opportunity to bring forward that next generation that we've got the MaRS legacy and different pockets across the country to make sure that people know that their ideas can come forward and become commercialized if that's where we're heading. So again, that's a narrow slice of the health system, but it's a really interesting one, and there's a lot of interest from industry and investors and solutions like AI will drive some of that. Now, not everyone is going to be the next big thing, but to create those opportunities across the sector really does, again, take us into these next year. So I'm pretty optimistic and I love our healthcare leaders. I just think what a dedicated, wonderful group, just sort of sage pragmatic to a fault. And again, the roll up your sleeves and let's get it done. So I think that that's a real beacon as we move it forward.

Catherine Gaulton: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely agree. Mary Jane, we have some fun questions for you, but-

Mary Jane Dykeman: Excellent.

Catherine Gaulton: Before we go there, anything that you wish we'd asked you that we hadn't that you'd like to add a topic on?

Mary Jane Dykeman: It's funny, I put in, no surprise, to ChatGPT, what kinds of things could you be asked on a podcast? And there's that one about any living leader from anywhere at all, any time, etc. And who would you want to sit down and have lunch with? And interestingly, I didn't go centuries back. I chose Alan Alda, and I bet you both know him quite well. Hawkeye on the series M*A*S*H and The West Wing and all kinds of programs. I noticed a number of years back the work that he was doing down in the US and it has to do with communication. So no surprise, right? Some of it's probably almost improv based and communication, but it's communication in science. It's a program at, I believe it's Stony Brook University in New York state. And I was fascinated by this because the program and his sort of mission was to empower the people in STEM to better communicate what they do and their ideas and everything else.

And I've been thinking for a little while, boy, I would love to sit down and hear more about that and how might we apply that even more broadly than STEM, in healthcare but in data, in AI and just cutting through and having this sort of clarity of vision and being able to articulate it. I think of that when I think of some of the startups and people say, "You've got to get your elevator pitch down to this and you've got to be able to deliver." 

And we've got such complexity really with... I would not be the one to walk you through everything about machine learning and AI, but I would love to hear more... And I must say I believe that he came to Sunnybrook, which is very close to where I live. I could walk over in 15 minutes and I missed it.

I didn't know that maybe the foundation had brought him in on this topic and I was very sorry. I think that was a real missed opportunity. But we need that clarity, that vision, that communication in some of these complex areas. It would really sort of streamline the path and reduce some friction. So that's one that I did think through a little, and that's why I chose him.

Catherine Gaulton: That's very cool. And you stole one of our lightnings, which is always like you actively thinking ahead. We've shown the evidence of that. Two short snappies for you, what's one piece of advice that a mentor gave you that stayed with you even now?

Mary Jane Dykeman: I'll go back to my mentor at Mount Allison University, Dr. Ross Stanway, he was my philosophy professor, and he had that passion for his work. He had this curious mind. When I say he lived large, I don't mean excess or anything, but he always showed up with a flourish. He had classical music blaring from his office most days. He flew his own plane out of Moncton airport, and one time I said, "Oh, I have to get up to the North Shore of New Brunswick." And he said, "I'll just come and get you." And I remember he delivered me to Northern New Brunswick and he had a chat with my dad and I thought, wow, I'm so fortunate. But he gave me advice I remember one time, it had to do with an academic program that really turned out to be not what I thought it was. And it really sort of took the wind out me as I was early on, post my original degree with him. And he actually traveled to Ontario.

I think he probably did it because he had family, but he made a special trip out of Toronto and came... I stayed in close touch with him always, but he made the trip and he sort of took in the surroundings and everything else. And I remember we were driving back into the city together and he just said, "Trust your gut. It will serve you well." And I've thought of it often because, again, I think you get lots of great opportunities. And to that new generation in healthcare, in law, in any of these professions, keep that gut check going. You don't need to make sudden moves. There's so much time people don't go into one profession or one program or whatever it is. You can listen to your gut and determine that maybe something's not for you and that's fine. So that's the one that I've carried with me for a really long time. He was a wonderful individual and we named... Our son Colin, has the middle name of Ross, it was that influential.

Catherine Gaulton: Fantastic. Fantastic. So as you now head into the weekend, we're recording this on a Friday. Imagine this as you set up your weekend. And if you were to go back at any point in history, where would you want to land and why?

Mary Jane Dykeman: So that's challenging, but really I probably wouldn't go back very far. I would be really fascinated to go back to the early '60s. And what I would like to do is to meet my parents at that early adult stage as well. As I said, my dad put himself through law school. He started practicing really early. My mother did an English degree and she was the person you would call when you were writing. And the first time I published an article, I was very excited about it, in an international journal of Women in Health, I think it was called. And it went through peer review. Everything was going flying colors. And my parents were not helicopter parents, I don't think that generation was, but I said, "Hey, I'm excited about this. Would you like to take a look?" And they had some feedback even after it passed everything else.

But I would go back to that time and I would learn more about them in those days, in the earliest days, what were the drivers? What were their hopes and dreams? Did it turn out as they thought? My mother was able to travel with close friends, spent a year in England. I heard only later that she was driving parts of Europe that my grandfather wasn't as thrilled about and different political events. And I just think you look back at a generation and you see them through certain eyes. So I would go right back and have those conversations and know them at the earliest time.

Catherine Gaulton: That's fantastic. And what a great tribute to them, Mary Jane, and this has been fun. You and I can and have chatted long and hard over lots of things thinking we're solving the world's problems. But thank you for this today. Fantastic insight. Really great to have the conversation and a great way with thoughts of your parents as young people, I think to enter your weekend. So thank you so much for this. It's been wonderful.

Mary Jane Dykeman: You're very welcome and a big shout-out to the work that HIROC does. As I said, I've seen it in action for a long time and talk about crowdsourcing. It'd be really hard on the system if everyone had to figure out everything on their own. So kudos to both of you, and what a pleasure to even have a chance on a Friday afternoon to have this conversation.

Thank you for listening. You can hear more episodes of Healthcare Changemakers on our website, hiroc.com, and on your favorite podcasting apps. If you like what you hear, please rate us or post a review. Healthcare Changemakers is recorded by HIROC's Communications and Marketing Team and produced by Podfly Productions. Follow us on Twitter at @HIROCGROUP or email us at [email protected]. We'd love to hear from you.