Dr. Tunde-Byass and Jennifer Dockery: Transforming Pain into Purpose

(Access show transcript) Dr. Tunde-Byass, Jennifer Dockery and the team at North York General Hospital helped bring Toronto’s first Black Maternal Health Week in April 2025 to life, but the conversation doesn’t end there.

Summary

Black maternal health in Canada requires collective change, and that belief is exactly what sparked Toronto’s first Black Maternal Health Week. Dr. Modupe Tunde-Byass, OB-GYN (NYGH) and President-Elect (FMWC), and Jennifer Dockery, Vice President, Quality, Post-Acute Care & Community Integration at North York General Hospital are determined to spotlight gaps in care and amplify the voices of Black mothers. 

In this episode of Healthcare Change Makers, Dr. Tunde-Byass and Jennifer talk candidly about why there is limited data about Black maternal health in Canada, what data is available, and what healthcare organizations can do today to better support Black families and patients. They also share a bit about their own career journey, including launching Canada’s first racially concordant mentorship program.

Mentioned in this Episode

• North York General Hospital
• NYGH Early Pregnancy Assessment Clinic
• Black Physicians of Canada
• Federation of Medical Women of Canada (FMWC)
• HIROC
• Toronto Black Maternal Health Week
• Jenelle Ambrose Dash
• Black Maternal Health Collective Canada
• City of Toronto

Transcript 

Imagine you could step inside the minds of Canada's healthcare leaders, glimpse their greatest fears, strongest drivers, and what makes them tick. Welcome to Healthcare Change Makers, a podcast where we talk to leaders about the joys and challenges of driving change and working with partners to create the safest healthcare system.

Michelle Holden: Hey, it's Michelle here from HIROC. I'm pretty excited about this new episode. Abi, why don't you tell our listeners who they're going to hear from today?

Abi Sivakumar: Yeah. You'll be hearing from Jennifer Dockery, who is vice president, quality, post-acute care, and community integration at North York General Hospital; and Dr. Modupe Tunde-Byass, an OB-GYN at North York General Hospital.

Michelle Holden: Yeah. So not long ago, the comms team at North York reached out to us to put these two on our radar. They were heavily involved in organizing Toronto's first Black Maternal Health Week back in April, alongside community and health partners across the city. So we get to hear about how the week went. We also talk about the limited data around Black maternal health and pregnancy outcomes for Black people in Canada.

Abi Sivakumar: But they also give us hope for what's possible and remind us how important it is to have healthcare rooted in community. So have a listen. We hope you like it.

Michelle Holden: Hi, Dr. Tunde-Byass and Jennifer. Welcome to Healthcare Change Makers.

Dr. Tunde-Byass: Thank you so much for having us.

Jennifer Dockery: Thank you. Nice to meet you.

Michelle Holden: Thank you. We know you are both heavily involved in organizing Toronto's first Black Maternal Health Week in April. We want to hear all about that week. But before we get into it, we wanted to get our listeners to have a little sense of who you are and get to know you a bit better. So for an easy one to kick things off for both of you, what do you remember about your first day at North York General Hospital? Maybe, Jennifer, you go first.

Jennifer Dockery: Thank you very much for that. So my first day at North York General is actually not that long ago. I started working for the hospital in August of 2024. So I'm kind of cruising into wrapping up my first year. I think that one of the things that sticks out for me is about what an incredible physical space this large community academic hospital has.

The grounds are beautiful. They back onto the ravine. As I was entering it on the ground floor, I could see that folks were very engaged, and that was the staff. It was the patients that were moving through the space. There was just a warmth about the hospital that I don't think I felt anywhere else, and that's the first thing that hit me on my first day of starting there.

Dr. Tunde-Byass: Well, I have to say that my first day was, I think it was in 2000 actually, and I had just emigrated from the United Kingdom, and I had to redo my training again, and one of the foremost hospitals I was posted to was North York General Hospital. Actually, it was 1999, and the first thing that struck me was just that this is a large community hospital. People were very nice. People were very curious, finding out how I had to redo my training again, because I had to start from the scratch, and people were very respected of that.

They made me feel at home such that over the years, when I did my training at University of Toronto, I actually came to North York many times. I felt warmth. I felt at home, and it's been the same since then. What's also unique about North York are the staff, people who want to work. They are passionate about what they do. So the hospital is very unique in that sense. And maybe a lot of people don't know, it's always one of the first hospitals that medical learners choose when they want to do their rotation. So North York is a very popular place, and I share that sentiment with them.

Michelle Holden: Dr. Tunde-Byass, continuing on that, can you tell us about your position today at the hospital, and what about it gets you out of bed in the morning?

Dr. Tunde-Byass: So being a physician at North York is actually great, because I had the opportunity to work elsewhere, but like I said, the hospital made a lasting impression for me as a trainee. So it was very easy for me to come back to work there. And I work as a generalist, even though I have a lot of training from past experience from the United Kingdom and having to retrain here. But most of my work is as a general OB-GYN.

In addition to that, I have special interest in high-risk pregnancy. So I do ultrasound, Dopplers, amniocentesis, all those things. And one of the things that I'm passionate about is the care, especially access, for women, for pregnant individuals undergoing early pregnancy loss and complications. So when I joined the hospital, I set up one of the foremost clinics in the country called the Early Pregnancy Assessment Clinic, and I am the physician lead for that program.

The other thing that's interesting in my role is that I'm also an associate professor. So that gives me the opportunity to teach across the whole pipeline, from medical students to residents and fellows, and that gives me a lot of comfort in the work that I do. In addition to that, I hold other positions within and outside of North York, especially around maternal mortality, equity, diversity, and inclusion. So the work at North York has given me the opportunity to wear as many hats as possible, because I work in a very supportive environment. Thank you.

Michelle Holden: Jennifer, same question to you. You mentioned you're in your first year at the organization. What's your role now, and what do you love about it?

Jennifer Dockery: So I am a member of the senior leadership team at North York General, and my role is as the vice president for quality, risk, post-acute care, community integration. I also have the Ontario Health Team, which has 22 community partners as part of that entity, and I have oversight for their long-term care home, and a new build that we will be doing for to add 528 beds into the system.

What I love about my role is actually the ability to influence, to influence policy, to influence decision-making, and also to work alongside in partnership with marginalized and high-needs community. That's kind of a thread that's run through my career, and the ability to co-design, co-create strategies and programs in order to improve population health for these communities is a thing that excites me and gets me out of bed every morning.

Michelle Holden: That sounds like a thread that actually runs through both of your careers. So I'm really glad we have both of you here this morning to chat. What advice would you give to other leaders on getting through the hurdles of being the first in something? And I know we'll kind of come back to that thread a little bit today.

Jennifer Dockery: Yeah. So being the first at something, whether it's the first hospital-based refugee clinic or it's helping to open Ontario's first urban Indigenous midwifery-led birthing center, it's always very exciting, but it also comes with a fair amount of challenges. So I think the biggest advice that I would give to other leaders walking into uncharted territory is don't do it alone. Change doesn't happen in silos. And so, you need to start by listening, really listening, to the communities that you're aiming to serve. Their voices will actually help to guide the process, and they're critical to it. I would say the transparency, humility, and persistence are key when you're navigating uncharted territories.

Also need to think about building strong partnerships, especially when you're trying to do something that's never been done before. I would also say, honestly, leaders need to expect pushback. There is always some resistance when you're wanting to shift the status quo. At the same time, it's also a signal. Resistance is also a signal that you're on the right path. And so, there's a need, I think, to stay grounded in your mission and your vision, and to be transparent as you're going through the journey, and to also keep showing up even when it's hard, especially when it's hard. You have to keep showing up.

Michelle Holden: Those are really good lessons, and your mention of partnership is important. We're going to come back to it for sure later in the chat, just everything that you mentioned there. Thank you. Dr. Tunde-Byass, another first, you helped launch Canada's first racially concordant mentorship program. Can you share with us a little bit about the program for our listeners and what gaps that it helps fill in the system?

Dr. Tunde-Byass: Yeah. That's a very good question, and I echo most of what Jennifer said in the sense that something exciting, but with some challenges, and it's all about community, because you cannot do things alone. So you need the partnership. So why do we even have this program, and how did we come about it, and who is the program for? I think those are very important things to bear in mind.

The first thing is to understand the context of why the first mentorship program. I think it's important to understand that the Black population accounts for maybe about 4.5% of the total Canadian population, but only represented by 2.3% of physicians who identify as Black. So you can see that there is some gaps there and underrepresentation.

So based on that, the Black Physicians of Canada, in partnership with the Black Residents Organization of Ontario, came together to form the first national needs assessment. So that assessment was carried out to understand the gaps that exist between mentorship for Black learners. What that assessment showed is that three out of four resident physicians who were in training did not have a formal mentorship program. So we understood that there was a gap. So what did we do about that?

So we decided to find mentors and mentees, and we matched those dyads based on gender and specialty. Bear in mind that this happened during the pandemic. So people do not have the opportunity to see themselves one-on-one. So we mostly did this virtually, and we've been very successful, and we've carried this through the second and third iterations. The question right now is, what are the benefits of doing this?

Apart from helping and sharing lived experiences between the two dyads, we also focus on things like work-life balance, enhancing the professional development, and we do have workshops on career choices, leadership opportunities, research, surviving and thriving during the residency program, and also how to cope with other things and address microaggression or even hidden curriculum.

So this platform is to support all these trainees because of the increase in representation that has happened in the last five years, and I'm very happy that I was also the chair of the program when it first started. But I have now handed the baton to someone else, but I'm still heavily involved in the program.

Michelle Holden: I love how you saw a gap and you and your colleagues looked into it, and you said, "You know what? Here's what we can do about it." And also what you said just at the end that you helped it launch. You helped it get off its feet for the first few years, and now you're kind of watching it grow in a different role, in different capacities. So thank you so much for sharing that. I'm glad we could share it with our listeners. I want to shift the focus a bit now and pass it off to my colleague, Abi, who has a few questions for you.

Abi Sivakumar: Yeah. Glad to join in on the conversation. As Michelle mentioned, we want to shift the focus a bit now, as promised, and talk about Toronto's first Black Maternal Health Week, held this past April. Jennifer, can you tell us a bit about the week and how it came to be, its roots?

Jennifer Dockery: So the impact of anti-Black racism on Black maternal health is well-documented as a crisis in the U.S., and it's now being recognized as an urgent health issue affecting Black women and pregnant people and families in Canada. The roots of the Black Maternal Health Week and how it got started actually is, I'm going to say, through the courage of Jenelle Ambrose, who's the chair of the Black Maternal Health Collective Canada, which she established after a tragedy where she had a late-term loss of her child back in April of 2023, and she wanted to find a way to turn that pain into purpose, and to also honor her daughter by serving grieving families who had suffered losses while accessing maternal care in Canada.

So she was the one who spearheaded the conversation with the city of Toronto to actually get the week declared here in Canada, even though it's been recognized in the U.S. since 2021, and aligned the activities so that it was following the same time that the week is actually recognized south of the border. The theme was around amplifying our voices, so trying to raise awareness.

And the Toronto Black Maternal Health Week initiative brought together leaders from healthcare, from both public and private sectors, the city of Toronto, multiple community organizers, political leaders, prominent Canadians who were committed to improving the health of Black women and children, and there were events that were held right across the city for that week in April.

The activities and events were about raising awareness for Toronto's inaugural Black Maternal Health Week and profiling the fact that the issue is important and that it's time that we all kind of collectively got together to work on making change. It was also about promoting partnerships and advocacy to advance improvements and close the gaps in reproductive health for Black women and pregnant people, and to raise profile amongst partners and leaders about the expertise that actually North York General has in this space, and our commitments to plan to address health equity and disparities in Black maternal health specifically.

Abi Sivakumar: Wow. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that story. You mentioned turning pain into purpose. I wrote that down. That's so inspiring.

Jennifer Dockery: Yes.

Abi Sivakumar: And Dr. Tunde-Byass, you spoke at the kickoff event. We were struck by what you said when asked what drew you, responding, "I think this is just the beginning of what we want for Black women." Can you tell us why it's just the beginning?

Dr. Tunde-Byass: Yeah. No. When I made that comment, I thought about, "Where did we start from?" And that's the historical perspective of Black women, generally being marginalized. They have always been used for learnings without receiving recognition. Black women, as you know, have been the source of knowledge, dating back to the time of Dr. Marion Sims, who was the founding father of gynecology, but his legacy was fraught by the way he gathered those learnings, because he operated on those enslaved Black women without their consent or anesthesia.

These women were also sterilized without consent, and these are things that still happened also to Indigenous women recently. You also may be aware of another historical perspective with Henrietta Lacks. This was the African American woman whose cancer cells became the source of HeLa cells line, but she didn't know about it.

So this has been the past. But even in the present, what we're seeing, it's the higher deaths of Black women from preventable diseases like breast cancers, and also the fact that when breast cancer occurs, these women are being afflicted with this disease in their 40s, even before they get to the point of having mammogram screening at the age of 50.

And when Black women have breast cancer, their cancer seems to be more aggressive, triple-negative and all that, and they have a higher mortality. But that's gynecology. We're also seeing this pattern during pregnancy and childbirth, and Black women have reported negative experiences. They often say they have not been listened to. They have been examined without consent, because their body have always been disrespected historically, or they're being forced to make decisions, or being looked down upon regardless of their socioeconomic status. All these things have been reported.

And when we talk about what started this Black Maternal Health Week, we spoke about Jenelle Ambrose, who turned pain into purpose. This is someone who was highly educated, and because of that, she was still not immune from going through the negative experiences that she had during childbirth. So shining light on these dark realities is important, and that was the essence of the Black Maternal Health Week in Canada.

The important thing is that we are not alone. So we have allies and people who are interested in changing the status quo, and that's the whole thing about this is just the beginning about rewriting the history and making sure that Black women's experiences are moved from negative to being positive. Thank you.

Abi Sivakumar: Okay. That's so powerful. And on the note of awareness, Dr. Tunde-Byass, why is there limited data about Black maternal health in Canada, and what data is available regarding pregnancy outcomes for Black people in Canada?

Dr. Tunde-Byass: So with the data that we're talking about, okay, we know that in Canada, we've never really collected robust data. Not that we don't have, we do have some. So some of organizations collect data, and they've been collecting this data from time immemorial. Some of them are not published. Therefore, we have not had any intervention.

We also have this belief that we don't need to collect race-based data, because there's nothing wrong with our system, because our diversity is our strength. There's also the illusion that disparities and racism is a problem down south. We're very polite people, and we believe that we're all the same, but that belief has been invalidated by the disparities that we see within the healthcare system.

So collecting race-based data, it's not the panacea for solving all the problems, because even if we don't have robust data, the one that we have mirrors what we see in United States. So when you think about United States, where we've always used our data, even though you cannot generalize with the population, but we're seeing that in United States, the maternal mortality is almost three times between the white and the Black population.

We can argue that, "Yes, people don't have insurance." But that's not true. The National Health Service in UK, the same pattern exists. In fact, it's four times higher in Black women. The little data that we have in Canada that was analyzed in December last year also showed that there is overrepresentation in early and late maternal deaths in Black women. That data had a lot of missingness, but it also shows something similar to any high-income countries.

Furthermore, the rate of preterm birth in Black women compared to white women is almost 9% compared to 6%, and that's the data from McGill in Canada. So we do have some data. The question right now is that organizations are now collecting sociodemographic data. They are collecting healthcare data, but do we have to wait for 50 years before we start making changes?

I think what we have right now shows that there's a disparity. We need to intervene sooner than later. And for us as a country, we actually have a better opportunity, because United States has been collecting data, but nothing has changed. Perhaps what we know now, we can put in measures that will give a better outcome, and we become the beacon of changes to those health disparities in Canada.

Abi Sivakumar: I appreciate you shedding light on this, because not only is knowledge and data on this topic so powerful, but so is accessibility to that data. And looking into the future, what do you both hope Black Maternal Health Week will achieve? Jennifer, maybe you can go first.

Jennifer Dockery: Sure. I'd be happy to. Thank you. From my perspective, my hope is that there will be an awareness that this is not just about Black mothers. It's actually about a broader truth that women as a group have long been marginalized in healthcare. They've been denied access. They've been dismissed. They've been undervalued. And within that reality, Black women, Indigenous women, and other women of color actually bear the heaviest burden.

My hope is that we will continue the work of rewriting the narrative around who's seen, who's heard, and who's valued. I think it's about challenging the system that was never built with all of us in mind, and rebuilding them with everyone in mind. The Black Maternal Health Week has started a conversation, and I'm hoping that that conversation is going to continue so that we can actually transform pain into purpose and purpose into policy.

Dr. Tunde-Byass: Well, I'm very hopeful, but this is going to lead to long-lasting changes. And I am of the belief that when we address inequitable access to care, we actually improve access to everyone. I'm hoping that we will raise awareness and also reduce maternal mortality in general in pregnant individuals. Right now in Canada, it's about 8.4 per 100,000. That is way too much when you compare this to other OECD countries.

Okay. Then access to care, which is what Jennifer mentioned, it's lacking in women's care in this country generally. I'm very passionate about access to care for pregnant individuals who undergo early pregnancy loss and complications, and the magnitude of the problem is huge. One in four pregnancies is lost, and this happens in the first 13 weeks of pregnancy, where pregnant individuals do not have access to their obstetrical provider.

So what happens? Four out of five of them end up in the emergency room, where their care is suboptimal. So that's one area. Postpartum, when women have had their babies, they do not see the obstetrical care provider until six weeks. As a mother in the past, the first two weeks are very crucial. When you do not have support, they end up in the emergency room with a new baby, problems with lactation, et cetera.

North York has actually been forefront addressing those issues. That's why we started the early pregnancy clinic. We had the midwifery-led clinic to divert these mothers, who have just had babies, into these special clinics. So that one, they reduce the visit to emergency room, and they are also well-supported, and it's the same thing for early pregnancy clinic, where we have a special clinic to streamline the process for pregnant individuals.

So all these things are extremely important that, for women, we need dignity throughout the pipeline, from pregnancy all the way to childbirth. When we address these things, we are definitely addressing the disparities within the healthcare system. There are people who are not seeing Black women, especially Indigenous women, people who have different sexual orientation. We need to pay more attention, and we can do that through education and having open minds.

Michelle Holden: Thank you so much for that, for both of you. You both talked about what needs to change and where there are gaps, and especially, Dr. Tunde-Byass, all the things that you just said. I have two little ones. So when I think about those first six weeks after having a baby, and the weeks that come before, those are really tough times. So I appreciate everything that you and your organization are doing. I think it's really needed.

Yeah. Just wanted to kind of share that. But Jennifer, our listeners, a lot of them represent healthcare organizations, especially in Canada, our subscribers do. Can you tell us something that those organizations, those listeners can do today to better support Black patients and families in their organizations to continue this conversation?

Jennifer Dockery: Absolutely I can. I can tell you a few things, because I actually think that this is a very important question, and I'm glad that you're offering an opportunity to actually talk more openly about this. For healthcare organizations that truly want to support Black patients and families, the first step is recognizing that equity isn't a project. It actually has to be something that gets woven into the culture of the organization, the systems and the daily practices of care.

I would encourage healthcare organizations to start collecting and analyzing their race-based health data, because you can't fix what you can't measure. When we can begin to understand the specific disparities that Black patients face, whether it's in pain management, maternal health, or access to mental health services, we can start to respond more intentionally.

But data alone isn't enough. Organizations need to invest in anti-racism training, and not just one-off training, but ongoing, accountable learning for the leaders as well as frontline staff. And they need to be brave enough to look inward, to look at what policies, what behaviors may unintentionally be causing harm or mistrust, need to be asking themselves, "Are Black voices of the patients, of the staff, and community members being included in a meaningful way in decision-making?"

And another key piece is about representation. Organizations need to ask and to look at who's at the bedside, who's in the boardroom and in the leadership roles at all levels in the organization. When Black patients see themselves reflected in their care teams and feel generally heard, trust can begin to build. Change does not require perfection, but it does require some action.

And finally, I would say that the organizations need to partner with the Black communities, not just for input, but for creation or co-creation, a co-design of their initiatives and their programs. Need to start by inviting local leaders, advocates, and patients to help shape the programs and solutions with you, because culturally, safe care is not just about what you provide. It's also about how and with whom you design that provision.

Michelle Holden: I think you were reading my mind on the question of partnership. I was thinking about that as well. So thank you for bringing that up. You mentioned, Jennifer, earlier how you have the privilege of working with over 22 partners within your organization's work as part of the OHT. So we at HIROC, we know it's critical, collaboration in the system. What advice can you give organizations and leaders when it comes to fostering good relationships and making an impact in the community?

Jennifer Dockery: Yeah. So partnership is everything. And as I said earlier, you're not going to be able to create change in a silo. It just doesn't happen that way. I was very impressed about the... So some of the things that I was impressed with the event, outside of the fact that I'm not sure that it's well-known, but this event came together in six months. So that was the timing that we had to actually pull the partners together.

So you just imagine the group that worked together that actually didn't know each other before agreeing to partner on this initiative. And so, there was a collective that worked together to try to ensure that every voice is at the table. So we had hospitals, community health providers, midwives, and most importantly, we had patients and families.

And that kind of collaboration isn't just nice to have. It's actually essential, especially when you're working to improve outcomes for marginalized or underserved communities. Community health begins with trust. You can't achieve it without that. Cultural context and the continuity that larger institutions often can't offer on their own, community is able to help us with that.

When healthcare is rooted in community, it becomes more responsive, becomes more accessible and more aligned with what people actually need, not just what the system thinks that they need. And when we partner across sectors, when HIROC, hospitals, midwives, and community organizations come together, we actually end up pooling our strengths, and the risks get shared, and the solutions get co-designed, and this is how safety becomes the reality. Increased safety is actually the outcome, and that actually is extremely powerful. So it's showing the power of collaboration.

Michelle Holden: Those are all really important messages. Thank you, and especially kind of the partnering across sectors and making sure that healthcare is rooted in community. So thank you for that. I know this sounds like a bit of a shift, but on Healthcare Change Makers, when we end our discussion, we do like to have something called a lightning round.

So as much as this is a very important topic that we could continue on for many, many hours, I'm just going to shift over to lightning round now, and Abi and I are going to ask both of you, Jennifer and Dr. Tunde-Byass, a few easy questions to kind of cap off the episode, and I'm going to ask both of you. So my first question, maybe, Jennifer, you can go first. What is your go-to summer activity?

Jennifer Dockery: Oh, wow. My go-to summer activity. I've got 10-year-old twins. I'm going to say the pool. I have a pool. It saved me during COVID. Yeah. If we're not traveling, it's where we spend most of our summertime, is in the pool.

Dr. Tunde-Byass: The summertime is always very special, and I like to travel. So traveling is more an aspect of my life that even though it's beautiful at home, I still love to travel. And if I'm not traveling, barbecuing. Weekends, spending that with families and friends, just enjoying the good time and having the opportunity to be outside and enjoying the good weather that we have in this country, and we can't take it for granted.

Michelle Holden: What do you prefer when you're traveling? Beach, city, or a staycation?

Dr. Tunde-Byass: I travel all day. We're a big city. Anywhere I go, I want to learn something new. So it's not uncommon that I go on different tours, looking for new ideas, meeting people, even just expanding my knowledge. That's the reason I like to travel. And so, everywhere in the world, if you call me, I'm ready to pack my back and go.

Michelle Holden: I love that. Okay. Jennifer, what's one skill you'd love to learn or master?

Jennifer Dockery: You know what? The whole trend now where everybody is baking and decorating and making fancy cookies. I like to eat them. I think that I would like to actually learn that skill, to become a baker, some sort of pastry chef.

Dr. Tunde-Byass: Jennifer, it would be nice to bake, but I don't know. I don't need more food. Right? Yeah. I'd love to be able to go somewhere. One sport that I really, really enjoy, it's Formula One racing. I don't think I'll be able to get into a race car and drive that, but that will be something I'd love to do in my life. It used to be Mercedes, but now with the race, and I'm very biased, it's the driver. I've always followed Lewis Hamilton since he moved to McLaren and all that, and now he's in Ferrari. So changing my mind to Ferrari because they have not been doing well. So I have to think again, "Oh, it's McLaren." Definitely it's not Red Bull.

So this is something that I've kind of followed, and I've followed this for decades, and even the days of Ayrton Senna. I was watching that race when he had the crash. And if I go to any city that has a racetrack, I will usually go visit there. But I'd love to be in one of those Mercedes-Benz and somebody driving me at 278 kilometers an hour. Yeah. So weird, weird thoughts, right? Well, I don't think that would happen.

Abi Sivakumar: And Jennifer, what piece of advice would you give to your younger self?

Jennifer Dockery: Oh, wow. I have thought about this. It's a great question. I think that I would tell my younger self not to take things so seriously and to take more risk. Take more risk.

Abi Sivakumar: Take more risk. I like that.

Jennifer Dockery: Yeah. Take more risk.

Abi Sivakumar: And what about you, Dr. Modupe?

Dr. Tunde-Byass: I think my younger self, it's to throw yourself out there. Everyone has something to give. And the earlier you do this, the better. My trajectory for advocacy did not start when I was much younger, and I think we need women to start advocating early, because that's the only way we're going to make change.

And because the health disparities, especially with women's care, we need young leaders, because they're the future and they're the ones who will rewrite history. And I'm beginning to see that because I mentor a lot of learners, and I can see that, "Wow, this could have been my younger self." And during that mentorship, I'm able to learn a lot from them. But that would have been something I thought I could have done as a younger self.

Abi Sivakumar: I love that, and I'm glad we ended on such an inspiring note for both of you. And it's been a pleasure talking to you both. You both shed much needed light on Black maternal health, and we really appreciate you joining us on Healthcare Change Makers.

Jennifer Dockery: Thank you very much for the invitation to participate in the podcast and the opportunity for us to actually support our hope in keeping the conversation going about Black maternal health.

Dr. Tunde-Byass: Yeah. Thank you so much for the time and also for highlighting all the things that we have spoken about. And with everybody being on board, I think we're bound to make long-lasting changes, and we are all in this together. Thank you.

Thank you for listening. You can hear more episodes of Healthcare Change Makers on our website, hiroc.com, and on your favorite podcasting apps. If you like what you hear, please rate us or post a review. Healthcare Change Makers is recorded by HIROC's communications and marketing team and produced by Podfly Productions. Follow us on Twitter at @HIROCGROUP or email us at [email protected]. We'd love to hear from you.