Dr. Mike Heenan: The World is Constantly Learning

(Access show transcript) Getting staff home safe is Dr. Mike Heenan’s number one job, and it’s not one he takes lightly. Mike tells us about his organization’s mission to address workplace violence, and the steps they are taking as a learning organization.

Summary

Dr. Mike Heenan is the President and CEO of St. Joseph's Health System and President of St. Joseph's Healthcare Hamilton.

On the episode, Mike tells us about a time when he received a very striking workplace violence complaint and how it pivoted his work and that of the organization.

We also speak to Mike about his career path and how no matter who you are, you can have an impact on someone’s life.

Throughout his career, Mike has dedicated a lot of time to learning. He shares with us his views on how it’s an important balance for all of us to keep in view.

While covering some heavy but important topics, Mike also touches on how his family grounds him. And of course, how he’s a big Blue Jays fan!

Mentioned in this Episode

Transcript

Imagine you could step inside the minds of Canada's healthcare leaders, glimpse their greatest fears, strongest drivers, and what makes them tick. Welcome to Healthcare Changemakers, a podcast where we talk to leaders about the joys and challenges of driving change, and working with partners to create the safest healthcare system.

Michelle Holden: Hey, listeners. It's Michelle from HIROC. On today's episode, Philip and I talk with Dr. Mike Heenan, President and CEO of St. Joseph's Health System, President of St. Joseph's Healthcare, Hamilton in Ontario. I first heard Mike speak at a Longwoods Breakfast in Toronto not long ago. We knew we had to get him on here to chat. We talk all about the work Mike's organization is doing around workplace violence. I know his story and their work is going to resonate with so many of our listeners and HIROC's subscribers across Canada. We hope you enjoy the show. And now onto the episode.

[music]

Michelle: So, Mike, we're gonna get into you and your work. But to kick things off, I wanted to ask you first, what is a smell or taste that takes you right back to your childhood?

Dr. Mike Heenan: Oh, that's a really good question. Fresh ice on a Sunday morning at the hockey rink.

Michelle: Oh, that's a good one. I like that. Philip, what about you while we're on it?

Philip De Souza: Oh, for me, it's fresh cut grass. I don't know, in summertime and I have to-- obviously, as you can tell, I have to cut the grass at my house all the time. So, just cutting it and then smelling fresh cut grass, I don't know what it is. It just brings me back... It's sad 'cause when I was a kid, I hated cutting the grass.

[laughter]

Michelle: Now, that's what brings you back.

Philip: How about you, Michelle?

Michelle: My dad's an electrician. So, whenever I would go to his office or his shop, he had--it has a smell. I don't know, it's like a factory almost. So, there's this, like, kind of worky smell that brings me back. But anyway, that's neither here nor there.

So, thank you, Mike, for joining us on this show. You have talked, and we've seen you talk about the intersection between business, which you have a background in, and healthcare. So, recognizing that, even if you aren't a clinician, the work that you're doing is really making a difference in someone's life. So, we wanted to ask you a little bit about your transition into healthcare.

Dr. Heenan: Sure. So, not many people know, but I actually first started my career in government on the political side as a communications aide. Only had a bachelor's degree at the time and eventually found myself in the Minister of Health's office as a communications aide to the Minister of Health. And it was there that I was able to see the impact that one can have from a policy and funding perspective on change in healthcare. And I remember vividly a children's rehab announcement in which children would stand up with the aid of a walker, post ministerial announcement saying, based on the policy and funding you're giving today, Minister, I'm going to be able to walk without this walker one. And it was at that moment that I realized there are many contributing factors to a successful healthcare system.

And so, I decided that I would try to pursue my way into a hospital setting. And I was mentored very, very well by Dr. Kevin Smith, who's now at UHN, around going to get a master's degree in business with a major in healthcare management. And so, I think no matter who you are, you can impact someone's life.

Here at St. Joseph's Healthcare, Hamilton, we had the tragic death of an employee a week ago. He died of a heart attack. And at his funeral, his brother spoke about how as a painter, he would uplift everyone's life by painting the hospital, creating new environments for therapeutic care.

And so, while my background will be in business thinking about finance and human resources and marketing and crisis communications and strategy, even a painter can have an impact on someone's life in healthcare. And I think that's the value that anyone can bring because at the end of the day, we have family and our health. And I think when you go through life and you say, what's my value proposition? It allows you to focus on what gets you up every day. And it doesn't look like a transactional job, but a career calling.

Michelle: Yeah. Wow. I'm really sorry to hear about your employee or staff member. And that's a really powerful story and just kind of does bring you back to that. And I also am really interested to hear that you were in communication. So, for Philip and I, our ears perked up.

You and I met at a Longwoods Breakfast. We were where we saw you speak this past spring. And afterwards, we were talking a little bit about when you went on vacation. You told me you received an email about a workplace violence incident and how it really struck you in the moment. I just was wondering if you could kind of tell that story or a little bit about that story for your audience and kind of where this all started.

Dr. Heenan: Sure. Yeah. It was a pleasure to meet you and others at the Longwoods Breakfast series, you're right. I was in Washington DC in March of 2024. When I go to Washington DC, and I would encourage anyone to go, the National Museum of African-American History is by far the greatest museum on the planet. And it tells the history of African-American and Black history in America, but it also speaks to that history around the world and the struggle that those of a Black heritage go through. And it's a very humbling experience personally as a White man and as a healthcare leader. And you realize the amount of racism that continues to exist and how far we've come, but how much farther we can go.

As I left the museum that day, I opened up my work cell phone and went through my daily emails. And every morning, I receive a copy of a workplace violent incident that a staff may have filed. So, it doesn't matter what unit or what campus or what part of our health system you're in, if you complete a workplace violence incident form, it does end up on my desk. And I was in Washington DC just out of this amazing museum of history when an incident came across that described a Black nurse being called the N-word and being told to go back to the jungle. And it stopped me in my tracks in terms of the irony of it all, that here I was learning about this and it's happening in my own organization every single day. And it really pivoted our organization. So, while we looked at workplace violence previous to that incident and we were going down the track we're gonna talk about today, I came back to my executive team and told them that story.

And from that moment forward, we started categorizing our workplace violent incidents not just by physical or mental or sort of psychosocial categories, but by racism and by sexual behaviours, because we also see sexual behaviours in the workplace as well.

And so it's these real life experiences that can stop you as a leader every single day. Do I deal with finance? Yes. Do I deal with how many people come through my emergency room? Yes. Do I look at our readmission rates? Of course I do. But it's these humanistic ethical issues that really make a leader pivot and say, enough is enough. We need to really deal with this. It's societal at heart, but I have an obligation as a contributing member of society to deal with my own organization and work within it to overcome this racist behaviour in this particular instance.

Michelle: I can't imagine what it feels like to get an email like that every day or similar to those types of emails every day. But thank you for sharing that with us.

Philip: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the point, you know, about the history, the museum you went to when you visited it and how that also opened your eyes to things. So, yeah, that's really good that you mentioned that. But like Michelle said, my ears did perk up, Mike, when you talked about being a comms aide. So, one thing I--you know, because Michelle and I are comms people. One thing I wanna ask you is what did you learn from that experience or what have you taken away from being a comms aide to what you do today as a CEO?

Dr. Heenan: Several things. So, when you work in a minister's office and you're a communications and tour aide, you have several responsibilities. One is to listen. So, you have multiple stakeholders in a very complex health sector providing you different perspectives and policy advice, request for funding in a variety of different ways. So, some people see communications leaders as crafting messages and doing events and sending out the daily, you know, talking points. And yet, the number one thing you can do is stop and listen. The other thing it taught me was how to manage a crisis. And so, I remember stopping a protest against the minister. I remember West Nile virus and that being a new thing.

And so being able to pull back and understand the gravity of an event is important and how you're going to lead a change related to that. And when you're in a minister's office, you have the political people who are managed sort of the politics of the day, you have policy people who want to advance a certain policy, you have stakeholder management people. But it's often the communications people who really are the conscious of the office because they're able to pull back and say, how do I knit all of this together?

And so, understanding the complex landscape of this, because you're with the minister in one environment at two and another environment at four, whereas that might involve two different stakeholders, two different policy people, two different political MPPs, an opposition against you. And so, I think what being in a communications role really is a strength is what have you got here and how do you critically think your way through it? And, you know, it's probably something people have said the flight attendants did really well at, and Air Canada didn't do well.

Philip: Yeah, I heard.

Dr. Heenan: And so, you know, getting that role, it's also one where you can apply it to any industry.

Philip: Yeah.

Dr. Heenan: So, you might be a health policy expert. You can't take that to education necessarily. You can't take that to tariffs and economics necessarily. But in communications, your ability to add value in any industry is actually a strength of that particular role.

Philip: And it's clear, Michelle and I, and even I was telling Catherine, our CEO. We were chatting with you today, and she was mentioning all the great stuff you and your team are doing. And, you know, even she was even mentioning about some work you're collaborating with another hospital and epic and a variety of things. And so, one thing that Katherine and I mentioned is how you are--it's funny that we're coming back to this, that you're a great communicator. And she said that people listen to Mike. That's what she told me. And I was like, yeah. So, it all makes--now it's all the--it's like all the puzzle pieces are coming together. And so, before I segue back to my other questions is, so you--obviously, you worked in, you know, in politics. So, would you ever consider a--you're very young. So, would you ever consider in a career in politics down the road, your next life?

Dr. Heenan: You're very kind to share that people wanna listen. That's very humbling. Or that you think I'm young. But I'm 53 years old.

Philip: That's a young.

Michelle: We're listening to you right now, too.

Philip: Yeah.

[laughter]

Dr. Heenan: And at one time, I would have thought about elected office, if that's what you're thinking about, but it is not a desire. I have the utmost respect, no matter what partisanship perspective you share, or what political party you might vote for. I have the utmost respect for elected officials. They play an important governance role in our society. They work very, very long hours. They are subject to social media. They are subject to going to the grocery store and someone asking them about something when they're just really going to get bread and milk for their family.

Philip: Yeah.

Dr. Heenan: It's a very difficult job that MPPs, city councillors, and members of parliament, cabinet ministers have. And so, I at one time would have pursued that, but it's not something I wish to pursue. And Philip, I just told my board I would like to be here 8 to 10 years. And now, they're gonna call me because of you. So, I have no desire to do that. I've learnt to never say never. Never to say never in your career. But right now it's never.

Philip: No. Well, you're doing--well obviously, it's never because you're doing such great things. I love the quote you mentioned how, you know, when after you saw and seen what you saw-- after you saw what you saw and heard what you heard, you said enough is enough. And so, you know, you went back to work feeling this need to act, and this is why you need to be there for longer. Yes. So, tell us about the work St. Joe's has been doing since to address, you know, the challenges you just brought up before I asked you. I took myself on a tangent. And so, you know, we understand that you and your team have this amazing multi-year plan in the works. So, tell us a bit more about that.

Dr. Heenan: So, yeah, thanks for allowing us to share our story. And I'll start by saying we're not perfect. We're not saying we have this amazing program or that it's under control here at St. Joe's. And I think that's an important part of why we're doing the work. In 2015, the Ontario Hospital Association ran a summit on workplace violence, and they really talked about five things. You got to have a right culture to talk about this issue. You got to have a good communication strategy on, you know, sharing why you're doing it. You have to educate your staff around not only the issue, but how to protect themselves. You've got to have the right policies in place to back up what you wanna do. And then you have to redesign infrastructure to have better supports. And so, that's really the five components of our plan here. We are an academic health science centre affiliated with McMaster University. And so, we continue to be also a learning organization that has an academic interest in learning about the prevention of workplace violence and contributing to the literature.

And so what we've been able to do is when I returned from that event, and we had started talking about it in the previous six months that I had been here. But post that event, we decided to share with our board this data of how many reports of workplace violence we had, the type of violence that was occurring, the severity of it and the impact on our staff. And we decided to actually show our board the actual incidents.

And so, as Michelle will recall from the Longwood's presentation, I actually read out some of those as well. And it, again, stopped our board and said, we never really knew the severity of this. Someone may have mentioned it in the past, but not with this type of focus. And they actually said to me, we would like you to fix it and we would like you to fix it now. And so I said to them, I'm willing to fix it, but I'm not willing to fix it now. This is a societal problem.

Just this week in Mississauga, Ontario, it was noted that in June or July, a patron walked into a Tim Hortons and spat on a barista and yelled profanities and racial slurs at them. So, this happens in coffee shops and it happens in hospitals. And so, I'm not going to change society overnight in one healthcare organization, but I can contribute to us fixing it sort of one incident at a time or one hospital at a time.

And so, what we've been able to do is first talk about it and acknowledge to our staff that this does happen. We know you are subject to physical violence, verbal violence, racial violence, sexual behaviours. And even though we have signs in our hallways, across all our hospitals in this country that say there's zero tolerance, the fact of the matter is we do tolerate some of it. For months and months or years and years, we've said, okay, well, we'll put the patient on, you know, a violence plan or we'll support the leader with training, but the patient still comes back and the patient or family members continue to behave in this way.

And so, we've actually removed the do not tolerate language here at St. Joe's and say, won't be ignored. Because we know in a Canadian environment, if you're coming for care, we have an ethical and legal obligation to care for you, but it doesn't mean we have to put up with your violence. And so that was really step one, was setting a culture and a tone around, you know, what is it? How does it impact you? What's our obligation as leaders to do that?

When we started doing that, we started rounding with staff and going unit by unit and really work looking at, you know, what is the physical layout of the unit? What tools and equipment do you need? What training do you need? And so, while some organizations provide high risk violence training, protective training to those in mental health or ER, we actually are doing it across the organization because the other profound finding we've had is I have seen it in dialysis, surgery, medicine, mental health, emergency rooms, complex care and rehab. This happens everywhere. It may happen more in an emergency room, it may happen more in a mental health area, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere.

And so, we started down an education component as well and also changing our infrastructure. We've just opened up a new waiting room in our emergency room. And for the first time, our triage rooms have both an entry and an exit for our nursing staff, should they not feel comfortable in triaging a patient. They can actually step away, close the door, and walk out the back, versus feeling like they're stuck in a cubicle. And so we're also looking at infrastructure.

But perhaps the most important thing that we're proud of at this point in time is we are subjecting ourselves to a review of our practices by the Institute of Healthcare Improvement. As many of your listeners will know, the IHI is an international healthcare quality and safety institute. It's a not-for-profit out of Boston, but do work around the globe. And they're in here. They were here a month ago and they're coming back in September, and they're actually assessing our programme. And so, we're subjecting ourselves to an external review on this. So, while we've been out promoting what we're doing, we also know we probably have opportunities to improve and we need a third party to help us there. And that really is the beginning of our work.

And then finally, I'd say just to wrap up that, two perhaps important points. One, in today's society, there's been a lot of comments about diversity, equity, and inclusion. We're doubling down on that. Most of the incidents that we see are towards those who are diverse or from a marginalized community. And we should be promoting equity and inclusion. And so we're doubling down in terms of collecting our data and highlighting that these incidents do go to marginalized populations.

And then finally, we do need some legislative heft to help us. And so, we're also being advocates and we're encouraging the federal government to repass Bill 321, which all parties supported before the federal election, and it just got provoked. So, we're hopeful that there'll be more legislative advocacy as well. So, that's really where we're at at this point in time. Again, we're not perfect, but I think we have a culture now where people are reporting and we're actually seeing less harm. So, I think that's an important point to wrap up on. We're seeing more reporting, but we're also seeing less lost time injuries due to, you know, workplace violence incidents. And that's an important outcome.

Philip: It's a really awesome strategy you have there. And I can tell it touches on a lot of factors. And one thing that struck me is how you started off by saying you and your leadership team acknowledged the problem. And so, it got me thinking 'cause it's a leadership podcast and a lot of leaders listen to this and it's good for everyone to learn from each other. Was there something you and the team did to--'cause, you know, acknowledging problems is sometimes not a popular thing. And so, people--the fact that you told your staff, we see you and we see this happening. Here's how we're going to help. What helped you and your team kind of, like--I don't want to say go over the hump 'cause it's an important thing to do, acknowledge a problem. But what helped, what factors helped you and the team make the decision to say, you know what, we're going to go all in on this. We're not gonna do it, you know, halfway. We're gonna make sure that our community, meaning your staff, your amazing staff and your community who come to, you know, receive care.

What are the steps or things that came to mind that you said, this is how we're gonna communicate. This is how we're gonna put it in action and this is how we're gonna acknowledge and this is the critical value of acknowledgement.

Dr. Heenan: It's probably multifactorial. I think my reading of that incident grounded us that we often talk in this sector. And look, I have a PhD in, you know, looking at metrics. And so, we often talk about numbers, right? We talked about ER wait times. We talk about mortality rates. You know, name your metric. And yet the fact that I stopped and told a story about a Black nurse who was subject to racism in her working environment stopped all of us to say, we are not an organization of metrics. We're an organization of people.

Philip: Yeah.

Dr. Heenan: And the Sisters of St. Joseph's who gave us our values, one of those values is justice. And, you know, they came to the shores of Lake Ontario here in Hamilton and they cobbled together, you know, fundraising back in the day. Got the church to support, you know, the building of a house to turn it into a hospital. And you didn't have to be Catholic to come here. It didn't matter your condition. And so this goes right back to our mission of being an organization that cares for anyone and everyone.

And so, one, it was mission oriented. Two, let's talk about metrics. So, I have 5,000 people here who come here every day. They'll travel anywhere from half an hour, an hour to get here. They'll work a 12-hour shift, and they'll go home for another half an hour or an hour. That's 14 day--14 hours a day that they're in a work environment. They're gonna sleep for seven or eight. That gets you to 22 hours. That means they have two hours for their family. My number one job is to make sure they get home safely. And so, again, that's 5,000 people who have families who need to get home to take their daughter to dance or their son to hockey or their daughter to gymnastics or their son to theatre. So, that's a number with some people behind it. But let's talk about the economics of it.

70% of hospitals budgets are people. The number one challenge we've had since the pandemic has been recruitment and retention. And so, building those two together, having a mission, and looking at our budget, to me, this just makes both mission and mathematical sense that these two things are here. I think for the staff, what they saw was an honesty around, this isn't just something you put in a quality improvement plan and send to the government as a part of your regulatory environment. These were very serious things.

We have had to ask families to not return. We've backed it up and not allowed them to return. We have trained staff when they've wanted to be trained. We have offered health and psychological mental health benefits to physicians even though they should go through CMPA. We're here to help them in our environment and we're happy to connect them to those resources. Because just because you're a part time employee or a physician and you're not in our benefit plan, if you're subject to these things, you know, we're gonna help you. And I think all that's led to a culture that says, this is not okay in a coffee shop and it's not okay in our hospital. We still have ethical dilemmas every day on these things, but we're not afraid to document them in charts. We're not afraid to talk to staff about, what did we do here, what did we not do here? And we're not afraid to say to patients and families, this isn't okay.

And so I think, I'm not sure if I'm answering your question or not.

Philip: No, you are.

Dr. Heenan: But I think in the end, this comes down to really two things: mission and economics. Mission is about our people and what the Sisters told us to do, and the economics are simple. If you take care of your staff, they're not gonna leave. If they feel valued at work, they're not gonna leave. They'll go an extra mile because they seem that they're valued. And that's what I think is making this really special here at St. Joe's.

Philip: Yeah. No, you absolutely answered my question. And you gave good foundational advice to other leaders listening, other CEOs from other healthcare organizations and jurisdictions across the country on the things that you did. And I can totally see, you know, like how it impacts and how it helps. But that culture. Absolutely. You said it best. And so, before I pass it back to Michelle, I was just going to ask you, you mentioned our friends at IHI. And so, what's the value of partnerships for you in helping you achieve, you and the team achieve this goal?

Dr. Heenan: Yeah. So, a couple of things. I think one is--so let's talk about Ontario partnerships. We've talked to organizations like, you know, the University Health Network as a good example. You know, we've talked to London Health Sciences Centre because, you know, they've done different things in their emergency rooms. In Toronto, UHN has actually started to put, I understand, you know, body cameras on their security guards. And we've talked to them and learnt about, how does that work? We know London Health Sciences Centre and Windsor have started to do weapons screening. How does that work? And it doesn't mean we're adopting those here at St. Joe's, but we're learning together about different things because there's just different perspectives at different times.

And so, we're able to learn from each other. Even in the Ontario environment. In terms of the IHI, I think the partnership there is twofold. One is don't be afraid to be subject to some criticism and some quality improvement opportunities. And if you're a learning organization, don't be afraid to have a third party help you learn. And it is our hope that both of those, the Ontario partners we're starting to build from, Trillium being another, we're gonna share best practices. And, you know, there are different environments even within health systems. o, I have a home care agency. The way I approach safety in a home care agency is going to be different than my emergency room. And so, someone like the IHI or HIROC who sees all these different organizations can bring this very diverse perspective to a table and apply it depending on the environment. And I think we're busy every single day and we can't do it all. And so, if there's partnerships that can help, we're gonna enter into them. And we're not gonna be afraid to
say, hey, help us learn. Because at the end of the day, we want our staff to go home safely and our patients and families have an amazing outcome and an amazing experience while they're in our care.

Philip: And I'm so glad you said that about the importance of scaling knowledge 'cause that's exactly why, you know, Catherine, Michelle, And I wanted you on this podcast so that others can learn from what you are doing. And, you know, you may not realize it, Mike, but someone right now is listening in BC or in St. John's or in Winnipeg and they're like, wow, like, we should talk to Mike first and we should see how we can support what he's doing and amplified here in our small or our jurisdiction, our region. So, we're so glad that you mentioned that scaling that. So back to you, Michelle.

Dr. Heenan: Yeah. Can I add one thing I forgot to mention. And I want to recognize that patients are also teaching us.

Philip: Yes.

Dr. Heenan: So, we've had a patient strike one of our staff and our staff reported that. But what we learnt was the staff person was changing the undergarments, doing pericare, brief care, to an Asian lady who didn't speak English. And you would imagine if you didn't understand what was happening to you, you might react as well.

Philip: Of course.

Dr. Heenan: And so, everything worked in that instance, was the patient feeling uncomfortable and reacted reasonably? Some would say yes. Did the staff person feel uncomfortable and reported? Yes. But we as an organization didn't train that staff. We didn't provide that staff, hey, you can get translation services. We didn't engage the family on how to communicate with their loved one when they weren't present.

And so, part of this is actually improving quality of care for the patient. Not just about, hey, don't hit my nurse. Don't call my nurse the N word. Don't touch my nurse. Some of this is--we're actually learning through this process to improve care. And that 92-year-old Asian lady did us a favour. It wasn't right that someone got hit, but the favour was, hold on here, you touched me without explaining to me what was going on.

And we've changed our entire pericare program because of one incident. And I think I would encourage all leaders to be very open minded about this perspective. Yes, some of this is intolerable, but sometimes we invited it. Very minor. We invited it. And so, instead of being critical to either the nurse or the patient, how do we collaboratively improve? And it's an awesome example of the organization stopped and said, we don't condone either. You should have had a certain protocol. You should not have hit us, but how do we move forward? And I think this can actually improve care, not just improve safety.

Philip: Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that example forward. That's really good. It just shines a light on something that, you know, someone may have not seen, heard, or taken into any consideration. So, I'm glad you mentioned that for our listeners.

Michelle: Yeah, I remember you mentioned something similar at Longwoods. Maybe that story or a different one, but in just a very quick, high level story. But what happened is after I went back to the office, I forget who I was chatting with at HIROC. And I said, you know, we were talking about this workplace violence. But then there was this other piece that I hadn't even thought of, which was like this idea of, you know, this element that the patient brings. And sometimes, there is this other side that you need to think about. So, it stuck with me too when you shared it. So, I'm glad we could kind of bring it to the show as well.

Philip did mention that this is a leadership podcast. And along that line, you've spoken in the past about being a very candid person. And we can tell just by speaking with you today, you're very candid in how you approach things and how you speak with us. I just wanted to take a step back and ask if you have any advice, or how can emerging leaders, someone coming up in their role, develop this candidness and kind of their own unique style of communication?

Dr. Heenan: Well, I think the latter half of the question is the most important point, which is their own unique style of communication.

Michelle: Yeah, that's a good point.

Dr. Heenan: I think people need to be genuine and authentic. And so, I had a provincial leader say to me just the other day, you know, I like it, Mike. You're just straightforward and you tell me, you know, what's going on. And then you call and say, when are we meeting again? But that's me. And hopefully, it's seen as being open and transparent and direct, but not rude and still respectful. I think there's very complex issues in our society and in our sector, and I think there are times you have to stop and say, we have to have a candid conversation about this. But not everyone is comfortable with that. Not everyone shares that DNA.

And so, I'm not really comfortable saying, how can leaders develop it? I think leaders need to really be authentic. Some people can be candid in the moment and some people need to reflect and come back and say, hey, is there any chance I can provide a different perspective on this? I read a book at one time and I can't remember the exact title, but it was about how to ask questions. And it actually tells you how to frame questions.

And so, I think there's learning opportunities, but it has to match your own style. And so, there's probably some people smiling like, yeah, that's Mike. He's the candid guy. He's gonna tell it like it is. But again, that might be Mike, and that's okay for Mike, but it may not suit another style, and that's okay. And I think I had a director who reported to me once, or it might even have been a manager when I was a director. And she came up to me once and said, you know, your mind moves so fast, you have to let other people think through things, 'cause we all think at a different pace.

And so it was a great piece of advice because one, it taught me someone who could speak truth to power. And I think it was someone who could pull me aside and say, hey, maybe you could improve a little bit here. And so, yeah, I'm more encouraged by the second half of that question, which is, how do you develop your own unique style? Because it's not going to fit everybody, and that's okay.

Michelle: Yeah, I love that you flipped the question around and sort of said, no, it's actually more like this. And I'm happy that you did that. It tells us a lot about you, and it tells us a lot about what leaders can do. So, I appreciate that very, very much. And along that line of kind of continuous learning, which we were talking about, I know that you have an MBA, you have a PhD, a lot of education. We've talked about it a little bit already. I was just talking or wondering how you talk to your staff about this value of continued education and kind of whether it's larger programs, or just even smaller seminars. How do you encourage that?

Dr. Heenan: Yeah, I have a brain that enjoys learning. I've always enjoyed the sort of the process of learning. I had several mentors over the course of my career that would probably say it this way. A bachelor's degree teaches you how to learn. A master's degree will give you some content. But really the value of that is learning communication, time management, critical thinking, and presentation of an idea.

And so, my MBA is an example. I graduated in 2008. The concept of artificial intelligence or data analytics was not even a part of the MBA program at that time. And so, here we are 17 years later. If someone said, well, you have the equivalent MBA as someone in 2022, I would say no, because the environment's changed. And so, that was another piece of advice I got, actually, before I did the PhD. Someone said, you don't have to go back and do a master's degree again, or a PhD if you don't want. But there are lots of small seminars, executive education programs that can allow you to learn as you go through your career. And continually learning is a skill set that you can bring to a new employer or a new environment at any time.

And so, I mean, you look at nursing as an example. Like, look at the transformation that's occurred in the 25 years I've been around and the scopes of practice changes and what we're allowing even pharmacists to do today that they never did before. So, the world is constantly learning. And so, for those who go and do a general MBA or a general PhD, it is actually an important thing for them to continue to learn because they will be competing in the job market, competing for airtime in a boardroom meeting, against clinicians and others who are learning. And so, if you're not learning, by being stagnant, you're actually stopped and moving behind where society's going.

And so, I think it's hard to do when you raise a family. I think it's hard to do financially from time to time. And so, it is a balance that people have to have. And that's why I think organizational development programs within health systems and corporations is important. We have to help our employees as well achieve that.

Michelle: Just kind of switching the gear a little bit. I wanted to ask you a little bit about your family before we let you go. I wanted to ask you who from your family is the most inspiring to you? It could be, really anyone.

Dr. Heenan: My wife lost her kidneys seven days after delivering our daughter. She has been on dialysis ever since. So, every other day in my house, we hook my wife up to a machine for four hours at a time. And 20 years later, she remains in relatively good health due to science and good clinical care, but mostly her determination and resilience to continue to be a part of our family and support us even though, you know, literally 16 hours a week, she'll be tied to a machine. And I think our daughter sees that now that she's 20 and sees her mother as this, you know, superhero who said, we're not gonna let this disease get in the way of building a family and having good experiences. Yes, it has limitations, but it is something that both grounds us and motivates us every day.

Michelle: Superhero is a good word for that. I'm glad you said it.

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Philip: Mike, we know we have to get back to your day job. So, we have a few Lightning Round questions for you, then you can actually answer with one word or however long you want.

But the first question is, so, Mike, what are you watching or reading right now, if you have time to do that?

Dr. Heenan: I'm watching the Toronto Blue Jays every night. Finally get into the playoffs.

Philip: Right.

Dr. Heenan: And it's an exciting time to be a Toronto sports fan, if you're a baseball fan in particular. And so, if you wanna get a hold of me at night, the work phone tends to be away and I'm sitting in front of the TV cheering on the Toronto Blue Jays is what I'm doing right now.

Philip: What was your--we know obviously you're a comms, but I'm sure before that you may have had a job. So, what was your first job ever?

Dr. Heenan: I had a job as a busboy in a fancy Italian restaurant in Brampton, Ontario, and I think I lasted nine weeks. I do not have the hands to play tennis. I don't have the hands to hold a tray full of coffee. And so, I guess the lesson there, Philip, is know your limitations.

Philip: That's a good one.

Dr. Heenan: So, that was one of my first jobs. And I think, honest to God, if it lasted nine weeks, that might do a stretch.

Philip: No, good for you. Finish this sentence. If I wasn't--I think I know what that one answer won't be, but if I wasn't working in healthcare today, I'd be a, what?

Dr. Heenan: I'd be a lawyer and a litigator.

Philip: Ah, okay. That's a good one.

What's the best advice you've received from a mentor?

Dr. Heenan: The best advice I've got from a mentor that I did not follow was don't rush to failure.

Philip: Ah, don't.

Dr. Heenan: And so, one of your questions that you had sent along that we didn't ask today was, what would I do over in my career?

And, you know, as a young person, I was enthusiastic and I was ambitious, and I moved from an analyst role to a manager role to a director role very quickly. And then I had an opportunity to be a vice president at age 39, and I took it. But I, in retrospect, was not ready for that role. And I struggled for the first two and a half years of my first vice president role. And I think it's because I rushed to get there and I didn't spend enough time at the director level. I was lucky to have a president and CEO who supported me through that two and a half years. And I actually didn't get that don't rush to failure advice until later on. But I wish I had it before I took that role because I did have a few hiccups early in my executive career.

Philip: Your vulnerability. And you talked about, you know, I can tell through your voice and your stories today, empathy and the passion you have and the values you talked about today, values, you know, you have a really good grounding. So, like, obviously this is--I feel, you know, the people around us when we're very young help form us. So, is there somebody in your childhood who helped form you to what you are today? Could be a parent, a sibling, a grandparent, or aunt, uncle. But I can feel it. I can hear in your voice. Is there somebody who helped make you who you are today?

Dr. Heenan: My parents have been together since they were 16 years old.

Philip: What? Wow!

Dr. Heenan: Just celebrated their 58th wedding anniversary.

Philip: Congrats, parents.

Dr. Heenan: So, they've been together 63 years.

Philip: Wow.

Dr. Heenan: It may sound strange, but one of them is Catholic, one of them is Protestant, and they had to leave Scotland at that time because that was not looked upon. And they moved to this country. Yes, we had some privileges, but they really formed who we are today. So, you know, why do I have an interest in the national--going back to our opening conversation to the National Museum for African American History, 'cause my dad instilled that in me. You know, why do I respect women in the workplace? Because my mother was the one who started the family business.

Philip: Wow.

Dr. Heenan: And so, it really comes down to I was raised right, to be honest.

Philip: Yeah, absolutely. I can hear it.

Dr. Heenan: And my brother and I were also held accountable when we were kids.

Philip: Yeah.

Dr. Heenan: Hey, you said you would do this. You didn't do this. Time to step up, guy. Like, come on. And so, there was values and encouragement, but there was also accountability. And so, yeah, I would say that's the reason why.

Philip: Yeah, absolutely. I can hear just in your voice. And now, hearing your parents story, they forged a path and I can tell you've built on that path. And it's just great to hear. And my last question is for you before we let you go is if we gave you the opportunity, free ticket, and Michael J. Fox's DeLorean and you can go to any time period, past, present, future. You don't have to give me exact date, but what time period would you want to go and why?

Dr. Heenan: I'd like to go back to the 1950s.

Post World War II. There's no technology.

Philip: That's right.

Dr. Heenan: The economy has to rebound. And yet we still had a lot of societal problems that could be fixed. And could we accelerate that so that the '60s and '70s were not the '60s and '70s?

Philip: Yeah.

Dr. Heenan: Yeah. I mean, in my own use, like it might be, you know, the 1980s when my hockey team was pretty good. But, you know, it would be interesting to see, and I hope we never see it, let's be honest, that we come out of another world war and have to deal with the discrimination that occurred in the '50s. But I think seeing how society changed post World War would have been fascinating.

Philip: Oh, absolutely. Well, Mike, we touched on--I don't think, Michelle, we've touched ever on this many topics in one conversation.

Michelle: In a good way, yeah.

Philip: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we're so happy that you joined us today. We're gonna keep watching you and your team, what you do, and we at HIROC are gonna make it a point. You know, I'll say here right today to how we could help amplify what you're doing so others can learn what's happening at St. Joe's and, you know, build it into their plans, build it into what they're doing across the country to make that difference. So, we stand united with you, Mike, in what you and your team are doing.

Dr. Heenan: Thank you very much. And I appreciate all of HIROC's support. I mean, most people see HIROC perhaps from an insurance reciprocal perspective, but the value-added services and the partnership it provides through the whole continuum of providing quality care is valued. And I appreciate you spending some time with me today.

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Thank you for listening. You can hear more episodes of Healthcare Changemakers on our website, HIROC.com, and on your favorite podcasting apps. If you like what you hear, please rate us or post a review. Healthcare Changemakers is recorded by HIROC's communications and marketing team, and produced by Podfly Productions. Follow us on Twitter at @HIROCGroup, or email us at [email protected].