Charbel Daniel: Adding Life to Our Years

(Access show transcript) Charbel Daniel from Northwood Care loves solving a problem where there is no given solution – he thrives on it. Charbel and his team have this in common, and it’s driving their innovation in Nova Scotia’s continuing care sector.

Summary

Leading the largest not-for-profit continuing care organization in Atlantic Canada, Charbel Daniel is always looking at how the organization can do better to serve its people.

On this episode of Healthcare Change Makers, Charbel tells Philip and Michelle about Northwood’s career college, which is adding capacity in a growing sector.

He shares the work Northwood’s Behavioural Support Unit is doing – challenging the standards of care provided to patients with dementia.

Throughout this, Charbel weaves in lessons from his parents who immigrated from Lebanon, and how this has shaped him as a leader.

Mentioned in this Episode

Transcript

Imagine you could step inside the minds of Canada's healthcare leaders, glimpse their greatest fears, strongest drivers, and what makes them tick. Welcome to Healthcare Changemakers, a podcast where we talk to leaders about the joys and challenges of driving change, and working with partners to create the safest healthcare system.

Philip De Souza: Hey, listeners. It's Philip and Michelle here. We hope your day is going great. How are you doing, Michelle?

Michelle Holden: I'm doing well. Thanks, Philip. How are you?

Philip: Good, good. So, listeners, on this latest episode of Healthcare Change Makers, we talk with Charbel Daniel, president and CEO of Northwood.

Michelle: That's right. So, for those who don't know them, Northwood is a not-for-profit continuing care organization in the Maritimes, and they're doing some pretty cool work.

Philip: Yeah. We talk with Charbel about his leadership journey, the career college that Northwood actually started, and how the organization is innovating around things like dementia care.

Michelle: That's right. So, have a listen to our interview with Charbel and let us know what you think.

[music]

Michelle: So, we read a long time ago that you wanted to be an astronaut and work with NASA. If you were offered a ticket to the moon tomorrow, Charbel, what three personal items would you bring with you?

Charbel Daniel: So, first of all, my dream would come true and get to visit the moon. Three personal items that I would take with me. So, this is not including people or loved ones, correct?

Michelle: No, yeah. Some personal items. We assume you might want to take some loved ones as well, though.

Charbel: Yes, 100%. Lots of snacks. I don't know if I could restrict it to 3, but I would bring a lot of snacks with me.

Michelle: That's okay.

Charbel: I would bring a couple books, for sure.

Michelle: Okay.

Philip: Yum.

Michelle: I'm gonna flip the script, Philip, a little bit. What would you bring? Maybe not three, but what would you bring?

Philip: Yeah, it is a very tough question. Okay. I'm gonna go on the assumption that there is, like, WI-FI up in space and I can do stuff cause, you know, Charbel brought up a good question to you about that. Like, what can I use? So, if that's the case, 'cause I'm saying the parameters, I would bring, like, my iPad so that I can watch all my streaming services and anything I wanna watch. And then I guess I would want music. So, I guess that could be on that as well. And maybe, I guess if I can't bring people, I guess I'd bring a picture of loved ones, like, you know, my family and friends.

Michelle: That's nice.

Charbel: Those are good answers. You know, an afterthought, I would take a camera.

Philip: Oh, that's a good one, yes.

Charbel: For sure. Yes.

Michelle: That's a really good one.

Philip: No, that's a good one.

Charbel: Yes.

Philip: Well, we know, Charbel, that you work at Northwood Care. So, why don't you tell listeners a little bit about Northwood and, you know, what makes it unique.

Charbel: For sure. So, Northwood is one of the largest continuing care organizations in Canada. It is the largest not-for-profit continuing care in Atlantic Canada. And it functions across the entire senior care sector. So, everything from long-term care to home care to affordable housing for seniors to remote monitoring technology for falls for seniors and anybody really at home, to a foundation that helps draw in funds and support additional programs, to a career college that started last September doing training for continuing care assistance. And it's just been such a wonderful experience. So, I myself started a year ago. Roughly July 29th will be my one year anniversary.

Philip: Wow.

Charbel: And it has been nothing short of spectacular. I think the biggest thing for me here with the organization has really been the team and the passion behind the work that they do. When I first started back in July, in October, that's Continuing Care month. And during that month, there's a lot of celebrations and recognition for years of service and the team and all the work that's happening. And that's really when it resonated with me, when I had all these certificates to sign for years of service. You normally sign 5 and 10 and even 15 years of service. But when it was getting up to the 35 and the 40 and the 45 years of service, that's when you really know that there's something special with an organization where somebody would spend that amount of time because you don't see that anymore.

Philip: No, you're right.

Charbel: People jump around a lot and they move for a wide variety of reasons. But that was the first thing. And then as I got to meet the team and see the work that they're doing, nobody was here--. It didn't feel from any conversations that anybody was here because they had to be. They all really wanted to be here and they were passionate about the work that they were doing, not just in completing it, but how could they do better? How could they challenge the status quo? How could they redefine care for seniors in this sector, in this province? And Northwood has a reputation of being a place of firsts. Back in the '60s when it started, it was one of the first--it was the first affordable housing for seniors in the province. It became the first for supportive and assisted living, and it continued on through so many things. And the team, it really resonates with the team. They want to push the status quo and innovate and be the first to challenge the way the care is being provided and how we can create an environment where people live more.

I mean, the general misconception of nursing homes and long-term care facilities is that people go there for end of life, and that's where they are until they pass away. And that was my preconceived notion as well before really getting to know Northwood and the team here. And the philosophy here, under every time there's a Northwood written anywhere, under it, it says live more. And the philosophy is creating a community where our seniors have all the amenities and supports that they need so that they can live longer. And it's not just about living or surviving. It's about thriving and enjoying, you know, all the years that you have to live. We say a lot of the time it's not about adding years to life, but it's about adding life to those years. It's been very exciting and eye opening, and I can say that that passion is contagious. I feel just as passionate as the team to see how can we do more. And what I found too is a little bit different than my previous experience. I spent my previous 20 years in emergency medical services, is that in this area you're getting to know all your residents and clients. So, you get to know them as individuals. You get to know them as people, you get to know their families, and you know their stories. You can't help but care more and want to do more for them.

Philip: Absolutely. And I love the two words you used, the live more. It's so simple, just like live more. And it means so much. It has so much meaning and weight behind it, and that's so cool. And I'm happy you brought up your previous life. And so, before I pass it over to Michelle, I want to ask you, you know, you started your career like you mentioned, in healthcare as a paramedic. So Charbel, you know, tell us, you know, about that time in your life and, you know, how you found yourself in leadership.

Charbel: So, that's a good question. Sometimes, I reflect back and wonder how I found myself in leadership and where I am now. So, as you know and early on you mentioned, initially my goal was to really go work for NASA. And at the time, I was starting a relationship and it was getting serious. So, we had a good conversation about my career path. And my girlfriend at the time, wife today, had said, "Well, if really the goal is to become an astronaut and travel off planet, that's really what you wanna do. Like, it's not--. I want to have a family and things like that." So, that's where the initial conversation and pivot started.

The next passion I had was around helping people and healthcare, and that's what led me to wanting to get into paramedicine. Initially, the idea was I wanted to get into medicine and become a physician, but I didn't know anybody very well that was in the industry. So, I didn't have a lot of exposure. And I decided that before I invest several years into education and going down that path, that I would do the one-year paramedic program, get some exposure into the healthcare industry and see if that was for me. And I'm very grateful that I did that because what I realized is, and I'm not embarrassed to say this, I don't have the stomach for what a lot of people see and what a lot of people do. And I realized that very quickly. And that's what started my path into paramedicine and then led to a little bit of a transition. So, though I was still working in the field and I pushed through for probably 15 years, the first portion was full-time, the rest of it was just part-time.

I moved into education and training and did a lot of training for paramedics. Spent about 10 years on that side of the world. And that was exciting too because, again, you're getting to build relationships with people, you're helping them achieve their goals, their dreams and see how excited they are. And a lot of the time, they come in with the idea that they wanted to feed off of my energy. But in reality, when you have a class of fresh students coming in that are very excited, you can't help but feed off of their energy. And so, that's where I spent a lot of time while I was at the college. I had some opportunities to grow and develop into leadership roles there to help the college grow. And towards the end of my time there, an individual by the name of Tim Coolin, a very important mentor in my life. I had gone down to the US to oversee an EMS operation down there. And he tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Hey, listen, I could use some of your help down here." And I took the opportunity. It was in the New England area, mainly Boston. I went down there for a bit and that's where I really got into leadership around EMS and operations. And came back to Nova Scotia, continued that with EHS before moving to Northwood.

Michelle: That's quite the journey, just kind of throughout, not only moving, but throughout the different industries that you were a part of. That's very, very cool. So, you mentioned your leadership journey a little bit, but I was wondering if there is anything that helped you on the journey. So, do you look to other leaders or organizations in healthcare or outside of it for inspiration?

Charbel: I'd say the biggest piece was the individual that I named initially, was Tim Coolin. He was one of the biggest pieces for sure. Tim has always supported me, still supports me. We still talk a lot. He's had a lot of experience in leadership and leading organizations. He's been very inspirational to me. There's been leaders that I found inspirational over the years. I mean, one common one most people might relate to is Steve Jobs. Just love the way he thinks, or he used to think, that challenging the status quo and looking at how do you really try something and not be so afraid to fail? Because failure is really the recipe to success. You don't know how you're gonna get there until you know how not to get there.

Philip: Yeah.

Charbel: And of course, like most people, I would say my parents. You know, my mother and father have been huge leadership and inspirational individuals in my life. Before I was born, they immigrated here from Lebanon. They moved to a country where they didn't speak the language, they didn't have any money. They just knew that they had to leave because of the situation there. They were starting a family. And for them to come here and build their roots and really provide an environment for us to grow up in, a safe environment, I can't think of a more inspirational leadership journey than that. You know, I think about my life here. I grew up here. I'm better off at every stage in my life than they were while they were here because I speak the language, I know the country, you know, all of the things that they didn't have at the time. And I wouldn't have any of that if it wasn't for them and their foresight and seeing where things were going and what was best for the family. So, big inspiration there.

When my parents came here, my dad started as a janitor at the VG hospital in downtown. My mom was a seamstress. They worked as hard as they could to save up a bit of money to start a little small business. Then they used that small business to save up further. Eventually got into construction and development and started putting up rental units and grew from there until my father retired, I believe in his mid 40s. And my parents were able to enjoy life from there. And unfortunately, I lost my father a few years ago to cancer just at the beginning of COVID there. And my mom's still healthy, lives just across the street from us and it's been great. She's a big inspiration.

Michelle: You mentioned, Charbel, a little bit about Northwood's Career College a little earlier in the conversation. So, we were just wondering how it came to be and sort of what impact it's had so far on the community.

Charbel: So the Northwood Career College inception of the idea started well before my time here at Northwood. The idea was to create more capacity within the industry. It's not about competition with the Nova Scotia Career College or Eastern College or anything like that. It's simply the fact that this industry is growing and there's a lot of demand. And how do you add more capacity so that you can support the growth that's happening? So, just as a small example. Here at Northwood later this summer, we're going to break ground on two additional long-term care facilities. Each one is gonna be 144 beds, which draws in hundreds of new team members that are required.

And so, a bit of the foresight at the time was to think about, well, how do we gain a little bit of control in making sure that we can ramp up to have the resources and the team members that we need to support the growth that's happening? And also there's just such a passionate team here about the work that's happening. And how do we provide earlier exposure to the industry, to the team, to the organization and get to know these individuals as they're going through the program? And that's what all led to that. So, the team pulled together the programming. It's been, I know, a lot of work to get that together. And it's September of last year, so almost a year ago, was the launch of our very first program, which was a great success.

It was our pilot. We had about 10 students in there. They graduated last May. And now, we're preparing to launch multiple programs starting later this year. We'll do one, we're looking at either September or October of this year, and then another one early next year in the winter. And just to continue to move that forward. We've got different locations that we're looking at as well to make it more accessible to individuals that wanna take the program. But very passionate team around the programming that's there. And offering a continuing care assistant program is just a start for the career college. I think there's a lot of leadership opportunities and development that we can start to build in-house for the team here because we know we already have a dedicated team. It's about how do we engage them and help them achieve their goals over the time that they're spending with us as well.

Philip: That sounds amazing. I love, you know, that there's plans to expand and scale up. You know, at HIROC, we love those words, scaling up so that it allows others to learn also from what you're doing. And those people who are learning are actual learners who are gonna come and work with you. That's really cool. And I wanted to go back actually backwards, because I really valued, you know, you talking about your parents, Charbel. And, you know, Michelle can probably tell you that in every episode, every guest we talk to, I love to hear their story about, you know, family and, you know, where their values are rooted. And I can clearly hear where yours are rooted in, you know, hard work and openness and, you know, just, you know, being a good citizen in the community. And I can tell your parents did that and you do that today. And so, you know, my question for you is, like, as up and coming leaders I know in healthcare are listening to this today, I guess what's one thing, you know, from that particular journey, you know, learning from your parents and those around you like Tim and family, what's something you feel that people should draw upon to help them as they, you know, kind of form the leader that they want to be and that the people, you know, their peers around them want to see in them? Is there something that you feel that helped you, you know, be the leader you are today?

Charbel: Yeah, I think the biggest one I would draw from would be around expectations, your personal expectations of what you may feel or think you should be getting in return, or maybe even entitled to. And so, one of the things that I continue to work on in the way I approach things and the way I think about things is that when working with people, whatever you're doing, it always needs to be the end and not the means. And so, I'll elaborate on that. If you were to ask me for something, if you were to say, "Hey, Charbel, my car broke down. I need to drive to get from point A to point B." If I decide to do that, my decision to do that should be because you need to drive from point A to point B, and that should be it. It shouldn't be because I'm hoping that one day, I'm gonna need this and you're gonna do this back for me, because I may set myself up for disappointment. But my values of why I'm doing something then become skewed, and you start looking at things differently and you're not genuine in your approach.

Philip: Yeah.

Charbel: And I think that that's been key. That's something that I've seen and learnt from my parents. I see that as very strong values with my wife as well. And something that we're hoping that we can instill in our children is that people that you work with, anything you do for people, it needs to be the end, not the means. Not trying to do things to build favours later or have expectations later. Just truly do it because it's the right thing to do, and that's why you should do it.

Philip: No, absolutely. I love it that you brought it back to that, you know, being your true, authentic self. That's also being true to whatever relationship or task or, you know, thing you're doing, 'cause, you know, that's what we as humans should strive for. So, I'm glad you brought that up. And you're absolutely right about, you know, doing that for anyone. And so, thinking about that, you know, doing that for anyone. And you mentioned it before, you know, at the jump about, you know, your time, you know, when you started at Northwood. And, you know, I've been at HIROC now for almost 16 years, and, you know, there's days I still surprised, you know, I learn new things and I'm surprised by, you know, the things my peers are doing and, you know, our company is doing. And so, I guess I wanted to ask you, like, is there anything that's--you know, it could be that surprises you today or that surprised you on your first day at Northwood that you really just had this really cool aha moment, like, aha. Like, it's meant to be that I'm here, and I'm so happy that I'm here 'cause I got to experience this. Is there anything that comes to mind?

Charbel: I think the biggest surprise for me was I never--and I don't want to take anything away from my previous experience with the people I've been around historically. That's nothing to do with that. But there's the level of passion that the people have here in the work that they do. And they're not just showing up every day to show up. They're showing up with new ideas, new things that they want to do. They don't have to.

The work that's being done today is already fantastic and amazing. But yet every single day, people are showing up and saying, "How can we actually do better?" And that's one of our values, one of our main values that we always go back to is we can always do better. And it's just beautiful to see people living these values and coming in each day and saying, "Well, I know we've been doing this for three years, but why don't we try it this way? And why don't we challenge the type of care that's being provided here and trying it this way?" And looking at the global stage of what's happening in this area and just always driving and striving to say, "How can we push the yardstick and how can we do more?" I didn't know that when I first started. Maybe it was just that first phase where people wanna give a good impression.

And so they're always trying to push these new ideas and showing that they're driven and motivated. But a year later, and it's the same. Nothing's changed. That is truly who these people are. They want to do more. They want to provide more. They see the value. I mean, ultimately, we can only be so lucky to grow old.

Philip: Yes.

Charbel: And that's what we want to do. And we're all gonna be there one day. That's where we wanna be, or we hope to be there one day. So, we're not just building this world and environment for our seniors today. But in a way, we're building it for ourselves tomorrow.

Philip: Yeah, absolutely. And great shout out to team Northwood. Awesome.

Michelle: Yeah, I really like that a lot. And I also like what you said about, you know, we're lucky to grow old. And that's really important to remember. So, we wanted to talk a little bit about--you mentioned quality of life before and how important it is that Northwood--and also about innovation and how it's nurtured there. We've heard that you have a strong, supportive, innovative culture. So, I just wanted to ask if you can share an example or an idea, a project that's come across your desk in relation to this, maybe a quality of life example or something that kind of truly makes things better for the community?

Charbel: Yes, there's several. The one that I'll draw on that comes to mind initially is around our behavioural support unit. So, this is a team and a unit located at our Halifax location that is truly challenging the standards and the level of care provided to patients with any type of dementia. There is this preconceived notion, and I know this for myself even when I was teaching in paramedicine, that when we think of people with dementia, we usually use the comments, or in our minds, we think back to saying, "Well, if somebody has dementia, they're kind of reverting back to childlike behaviours. They don't have a full understanding." You're afraid that they shouldn't be around stairs or near water. That they can't use a steak knife to cut a piece of steak and things like that. And that's not the real understanding of dementia and what that care should be like and what that environment should look like.

And we've learnt a lot from an organization called Be Advice based out of Europe that's helped us map out the level of care, the different types of care, and how we provide that care for dementia patients. But essentially, they may not have the memory of their historical things and things that have happened, but the muscle memory of their activities of daily life, as long as they're pointed in the right direction, is still there. I use this example. It might be a bad example to use because it's a little bit different. But I think about the Jason Bourne movie, and the first one where he didn't know who he was, he didn't know where he was. But anytime there was conflict, that muscle memory automatically kind of threw him back to being able to defend himself. And that's probably the closest thing to describing dementia, is that if somebody knew how to walk their whole life, now that they have dementia, they're not gonna not be able to walk or go upstairs or downstairs or to do different things.

You know, if Michael Phelps developed dementia overnight and he was thrown into the deep end of a swimming pool, probably could swim to the side just fine 'cause of that muscle memory. And so the innovative work that's happening around dementia care at Northwood and with the Northwood team, it's been amazing. And how do we create an environment where these individuals can thrive and still enjoy life and have the better understanding of the things that need to be simple so that they're not frustrated, they don't get agitated. There's just better understandings and things that we need to invest more time to understand so that people with anything that's happening can still live a full life and enjoy it.

Michelle: That's very cool. I'm glad you brought that example up. I know dementia obviously is something that impacts all of us, but especially in the seniors care kind of world. Lots of things for other organizations as well to take from that. So, yeah. Over to you, Philip.

Philip: Yeah. Hearing all that, I was gonna--. I feel like Northwood is, like, a very special place, and that's why you're there. And that's why we're having you on the show today. And so, I thought I'd ask you if we had a magic wand and we could take one or two things from Northwood so that everyone across the country can learn and, you know, implement something that you are, you know, if it's a thing, if it's just the culture at Northwood that they could take so that others can be as successful, as connected as Northwood. And these things could be like, you know, the long tenure of your employees, you know, that just shows the commitment, dedication they have. It could be anything, really. What two things do you think that you would identify like, you know, if the prime minister came and said, "Hey, Charbel, we wanted to, you know, take one or two things from Northwood." What are the one or two things, you know, that--. First, you know, I can tell from this call, from this pod for this episode, there's tons of things. But what are one or two things that come to mind that you feel, "Oh, you know what? This will really help the system as a whole across the country that we have here we're so fortunate to have at Northwood." Anything come to mind?

Charbel: Yes. So, this is kind of like the first question again, because going to the moon, I want to take everything with me. And so, I think about everything that exists here. There's so much. But if we're going to narrow it down to two, and I don't even know if these are in any particular prioritization. The first for sure would be culture.

Philip: Cool.

Charbel: The team. And I just can't say enough about team. I truly can't. But it's also instilled in the leadership team and how they look after their teams. And, you know, we talk about people first, mission always. And how do you build an environment and a culture where the team itself thrives and does amazing work and they have the environment, they feel psychological safety to be able to speak their minds, provide feedback, and have that openness? That I believe is key. I would challenge anybody to point to an organization where they have a healthy work environment, a strong work culture, and they produce bad products or offer bad customer service. They just don't. That doesn't exist. So, look after your team first, create that culture. And that's, I would say, number one, that I would take and say, do that everywhere, anywhere you can focus on the team. Again, make them the end, not the means. So, support them because it's the right thing to do and they will do the right thing as well.

The second thing, I think this is built into Northwood's just genetic makeup about being a place of firsts. And it's that innovative mindset, the challenging the status quo, and just saying, is it good enough? And then can we do better? And how do we make it better? How do we continue to go forward and forward? I personally have a huge obsession with problem solving. I love looking at problems, understanding them, seeing different ways to tackle them. Especially if somebody says to me, they have a problem and there's no solution to it, you've got my full undivided attention. We'll find a way forward. And I just find here they're always looking for better ways to do things because we've all heard the saying, if it's not broken, don't fix it.

Philip: Yeah.

Charbel: That thing has so many detrimental effects to it and impacts that, you know, the only thing that applies to is drywall. If your drywall is not broken, don't fix it. Everything else needs some type of nurturing care, maintenance, making it better, looking at different ways to enhance it. You can't sit back and just say, this is working fine and we don't need to do anything else. The environment's changing, people are changing, demographics are changing. Everything is changing all the time. So, you always have to continue to do better. And that's one of the things here that I would say for sure if we could take it and instill it everywhere else is always looking at how can we always do better and how do we continue to enhance things before they break?

Philip: No, I love that, problem solving. Tapping into problem solving is so cool. And the culture, absolutely. I can hear it in your voice how special it is. And, you know, I love it that the team at Northwood sounds to be very collaborative. So, building on that collaboration, you know, we at HIROC know partnerships are, like, essential, especially in the healthcare system we're in today as it's ever evolving. And so, what do partnerships mean for you and the team at Northwood? You know, those, you know, who you have to interact with in the community, with government, with--yeah, you know, anyone really who you all work with. You know, like, I guess what does it mean to you? And how do you personally as a leader, you know, kind of build those bridges and keep those relationships going? And any advice you can give to other leaders, you know, in the system, like, of what, you know, something that's really, really worked for you. And, you know, it can be at Northwood. It could really be anywhere along your career.

Charbel: Well, partnerships, first off, should not be transactional. And there's a whole world of partnerships that exist for solely transactional purposes. I think of partnerships as things that go past being transactional and move towards transformation and working together. And so, when you think about partnerships, then the first thing that's key is the values have to align. And I think about the partnerships here at Northwood that exist first and foremost with the Department of Seniors of Long Term Care, with the Department of Housing, with the government sector in general. And we've got a fantastic partnership there. Our values are aligned, our initiatives are aligned. This government's been pushing really hard to make some aggressive changes that are in desperate need in this sector in Nova Scotia. And it's been fantastic. They've been very supportive. We've been very much aligned and getting a lot done. And there's so much more to do.

I think about our other partnerships with allied agencies around us. Even going back to my previous hat working at EHS, there's the Care by Design partnership program that exists that was built while I was over at EHS. And that's just providing a different level of care and experience for residents in long-term care. Because, you know, going back to the problem solving side of things, as the industry changes, the approach needs to change. And initially, you know, a service would be--an ambulance service would be about taking everybody to the hospital to get looked at. Well, the Care by Design partnership with long-term care brings the services to seniors where they are. And so, it doesn't need to transport them all the time. And that continues to grow, not just through EHS, but even through the care that's provided by the team here at Northwood.

So, we now have our nurses that can actually prescribe medication, which is a new program. We're rolling out our IV therapy pilot program, which, again, a lot of seniors get transported because they're dehydrated. They have to go to the hospital, get an IV, get fluids, come back. Now our team's here can initiate the IV, get them hydrated, and keep them in the comfort of their own home. So, all of those partnerships, just as long as values are aligned and we're making sure that it's an end, we're ensuring better environments, more comfort, better quality care, then you'll find it very easy. The difficult partnerships are the ones where your values aren't aligned. And that's when you need to look back and take a step back and say, is this a partnership then? Or is this more of a transaction that we need to complete so it can help us both, but it's going to help us in different ways?

Philip: As you were talking, I was like, oh, empty my head. I was like, I need to get on a plane and come visit Northwood.

Charbel: We would love that.

Philip: Yeah, we can't wait. We can't wait to come next time we're coming. And my last question before Michelle and I move to the lightning round is, you know, I'm so happy you spoke about your parents and, you know, one of your mentors, Tim. But, you know, I guess for obviously all our listeners, you know, there's people always like, oh, what book should I read next? And leadership book. And what leadership course should I take? And it sounds to me that your journey has been, you know, very organic. Like you said, as you transitioned role, you learnt something new from those around you. And so, I just wanted to ask you as on this journey, you know, obviously mentors or mentorship is very important and I'm glad you mentioned, you know, the ones that have been in your life. But is there a piece of advice or something that a mentor, even a non-mentor, has shared with you that stuck with you to this day that you're like, oh, you know, this is a really good lesson and, you know, I wanna make sure, you know, like you said, that those around me and see me living it. And, you know, your kids, whoever that may be, has there been something like that that you've had along your journey?

Charbel: I can think of two.

Philip: Okay.

Charbel: The first one is from my parents. And growing up, you tend to be a little impulsive. And it was very simple. Anytime I was thinking of doing something, wanted to do something, really excited to do something, all they tell me is just sleep on it, just give it a day. It was that simple. And that's been great advice because there's several things I could think of throughout my lifetime that if I didn't sleep on it, I might have some regrets or more regrets.

Philip: Right? So true.

Charbel: Yes. So, that one was key. The other one is from Tim, actually, and who, as I mentioned, continues to spend a lot of time with me. And, you know, whenever we have our conversations, I always say, Tim, I don't know how to ever thank you. Thanks for your time, advice, all this stuff. And all he says to me is just pay it forward.

Philip: Yeah.

Charbel: And I think that's important. That's a really important one, is pay it forward. We can all succeed together. I know it sounds kind of cliche and it feels like we're racing and everybody wants to be ahead of everyone else, but that's really not what humanity is about.

Philip: Right.

Charbel: We either all succeed together or we all fail together. It's that simple. And paying it forward has been the most rewarding thing that I've been seeing and experiencing throughout my life and leadership journey is finding individuals who are starting out or have been in a leadership role for some time and feeling stagnant or don't know where to go. And I'm not saying I always have great advice to offer, but I've got to put good set of ears. Sometimes, just listening helps and sharing some experiences that might open somebody's eyes to saying, okay, I never thought about it that way. But I think that's key. Just help others succeed, help them achieve their goals and we can all win.

Philip: Oh, I think that's a great way to end our formal questions for you. Now, it's off to our fun ones. But, yeah, I love that paying it forward. And I think you're doing that right now, actually. You may not realize it, Charbel, but you are. And so, Michelle, let's ask Charbel some lightning round questions where there's no right or wrong answers, and they're just very short. You can answer with one word, Charbel, or you can answer as long as you want. Michelle?

Michelle: Yes, Charbel. I'm back with the tough questions. What's one song that pumps you up for the day?

Charbel: There's a song called “C'est la vie” by Khaled. It's kind of a mix of French, and I just find that really uplifting.

Michelle: What's the first thing you do when you're bored? So if you ever get bored anymore, what would you do?

Charbel: That's a rarity. But if I find myself bored, I think the first thing I kind of look to is to fix something in the house that I've been putting off for a very long time. Yeah, if I'm sitting around and--that's a tough one. Being active. I mean, I've got such a long list of things to do that generally if I'm sitting there being bored, it's by intention, because I'm just taking a break before getting on to the next thing.

Michelle: Yeah, I think sometimes being bored is a good thing, too. It's not necessarily that you always have to fill it. So, that's a good point. What are you watching or reading right now?

Charbel: So, the last book I read is by Mark Manson. It's called Everything Is F---ed. I'll leave it at that. It was a very interesting book. It's his second book. The first one he wrote was the Subtle Art of Not Giving an F. They sound much more aggressive than they are. It's just their titles are catchy. I think that's a marketing thing. But great books. Really put things into perspective. The last one I read, I just finished it about a week ago. I do recommend it. It's a good book.

Philip: Yes, I have read it. It's a good, quick read. And it has, like, some good lessons. I totally agree. Charbel, If we flip the script and you had a podcast show and you could invite anyone on the show in the world--and that doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be in healthcare. Doesn't have to be anything. Who would you want to bring? Who would you want to interview? Who would you want to be a guest? Could be any music, entertainment, healthcare, leadership, anything.

Charbel: Oh, that's good. Do they have to be alive today?

Philip: No. Yeah, good question. No, they don't have to be live today.

Charbel: Okay, so my first gut goes to Steve Jobs. Really intrigued by how he really took innovation to another level. In fact, most people think innovation and Steve Jobs as synonymous. You can almost flip the words around. Yeah, I would say for sure that would be the top of my list.

Philip: I would definitely listen to that one. And at the start, I know you mentioned you have kids. I'm not sure how many, but you said you have kids. And so my question to you, it's a silly, fun one. You're having an amazing journey in life here. What would you tell them that they have to do before they get to your age? Something they have to do in life that you've done that you're like, oh, my God, I'm so happy I experienced that in my life. And it could be anything. It could be traveling. It could be reading a book and watching this show. It could be anything, really. What would you say, that you sat them down at dinner tonight and said, you know, before you get to my age, you really need to have done this. What would that this be?

Charbel: I would tell them, and we try and do this as best as we can, that they need to travel.

Philip: Huh!

Charbel: And I say that because we are very, very fortunate in this country and in this province with what we have available to us at any time. And the rest of the world is not in the same shape. And so, it's just for them to have an understanding so they can have real gratitude for what they have in life and the type of life that they're living. Throughout my life, we've moved around. My parents moved back to Lebanon after I was born, and I've moved back with them. And, you know, you can't even compare the two. Now, Lebanon's beautiful, don't get me wrong. It's great to go visit, vacation, all of these things, but zero peace of mind. And so, I'd really love for them to understand that so they know the value of the life that they have. And hopefully, it also inspires them to want to make a difference and just leave something positive behind.

They always hear me say that--you know, they ask me, or we have fun discussions at home. And one of them was around what are our individual goals or what are we trying--you know, if you could just get one thing accomplished in life, what would it be? And for me, if I can just make the world a little bit better than before I was here, then I feel that I accomplished something.

Philip: No, this is a good one. Travel, I think is absolutely necessary for everybody if they're able to, of course. And I know it's something that I'm grateful for too. But you just learnt so much, like you said, about, you know, what we have here, how much we have, and, you know, the fortune we have here. And then it's also about learning new perspectives and seeing different lens and seeing how other people live, you know. But, you know, and the one thing, for me, that I see when I travel is that, you know, that line, that string of communities everywhere you go. And, you know, I'm sure you've seen it where you can easily--you make friends and you think you wouldn't. But then you're like, oh, like, you do this? So do I, back at home. So that's a really cool thing if you haven't noticed it.

And my last question for you--and you can't say astronaut, sorry--is finish the sentence. If I wasn't in healthcare today, I'd be a--?

Charbel: Leading a tech company.

Philip: Ah, that's a good one. Very cool.

Charbel: Yeah, a lot of exciting things happening in technology.

Philip: Right? I know. We actually had a couple startup founders come to our talk. We have these things called the HIROC use every month where staff get to learn something new. And so, last week I arranged for these two startup founders to come and talk. And the chat was lighting up with lots of comments about technology and innovation and it was very cool. So, that's a good one, Charbel. Thank you so much for that. Michelle, back to you.

Michelle: Yeah. And that's it for our Lightning Round. Charbel, we wanted to thank you, Philip and I, for joining us on the podcast. It was a great conversation. I'm sure all of our listeners learnt a lot. We definitely did. We took a lot away from that. So, thank you very much for joining us.

Charbel: Thank you both so much for having me on your show. Really appreciate it and love the conversation. So, thank you very, very much.

Thank you for listening. You can hear more episodes of Healthcare Changemakers on our website, HIROC.com, and on your favorite podcasting apps. If you like what you hear, please rate us or post a review. Healthcare Changemakers is recorded by HIROC's communications and marketing team, and produced by Podfly Productions. Follow us on Twitter at @HIROCGroup, or email us at [email protected].