Christine Donaldson: Moving the Needle on Sustainable Procurement

(Access show transcript) As CEO of HealthPRO Canada, Christine Donaldson taps into her extensive background in pharmacy to be an informed and change-oriented leader.

Summary

Advocating for change and collaboration in our healthcare supply chain is part of Christine Donaldson’s purpose, this shines through in her leadership approach. Her team’s advocacy work is reflected with action as HealthPRO Canada recently became an Aboriginal Procurement Champion with the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business (CCAB), thus making strides towards a more inclusive healthcare supply chain and system. 

“Part of our Indigenous journey and reconciliation of where we’re heading into the future is to do it through business partnerships,” says Christine when explaining the importance of collaborating with CCAB.

Christine also shares her leadership approach centred around collaboration, transparency, openness, and meeting people at the level they’re at. 

And collaboration is a big part of the work Christine and her team are doing on moving toward a more sustainable procurement model. 

Don’t miss our special 70th episode of Healthcare Change Makers! It’s a great chance to hear from Christine about how HealthPRO is focusing on sustainable practices, their strategies to ensure constant supply for its hospital members, and Christine’s advice to healthcare organizations on implementing a collaborative culture! 

Mentioned in this Episode

• HealthPRO Canada
• U of T Pharmacy
• Dr. Fiona Miller
• Dr. Zubin Austin
• Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business (CCAB)

Transcript 

Imagine you could step inside the minds of Canada's healthcare leaders, glimpse their greatest fears, strongest drivers, and what makes them tick. Welcome to Healthcare Changemakers, a podcast where we talk to leaders about the joys and challenges of driving change and working with partners to create the safest healthcare system.

Philip De Souza: Hey, listeners. It's Philip and Abi here. Thank you for listening to Healthcare Changemakers, it means the world to us. We love that you love our show. Abi, let listeners know who's on the show with us today.

Abi Sivakumar: On our show today, we're fortunate to speak with Christine Donaldson, president and CEO of HealthPRO Canada.

Philip De Souza: Yes, it was a great episode, great conversation. We talked about everything from sustainability to having a strong culture collaboration in the healthcare system. We even get to hear about Christine's very first job, which may or may not have involved a food fight or two. Without further ado, let's welcome Christine. Welcome, Christine. Thank you for joining us today.

Christine Donaldson: Oh, so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Philip De Souza: Let's get right to it. You're going to a party and someone asks who you are and where do you work, how would you describe HealthPRO to that person?

Christine Donaldson: At HealthPRO Canada, the way I like to describe it is I love the work we do. We really connect the best quality suppliers and providers of essential medications and products and services to healthcare frontline so that all patients, again, can benefit from those products and services. It's really a way of, we just make sure that we explain that we are the ones who help provide a platform, I guess, I would say, to again ensure that we are constantly evolving the highest quality, the safest, the best of what's out there for Canadian patients and really to improve the healthcare system overall.

Philip De Souza: Before becoming CEO, you had a career in pharmacy actually, so we'd love to hear more about your background and how it set you up to become more informed CEO.

Christine Donaldson: I am very pleased to tell you a little bit more about my background. My professional clinical background has been unbelievably important in how I've taken on different leadership roles throughout my career. Of course, having that professional, collegial way of introducing myself into the hospital network, my very, very first position as a pharmacist was in the downtown core in Toronto. You learn best practices growing up on University Avenue. That's one of the best things I can say. Of course, I learned very quickly about the healthcare system overall. Then, very soon after that, was fortunate enough to take on a faculty position at U of T. Teaching back at my faculty with first year, second year students and helping them become part of the profession and learning some of the basics of what it is to be a pharmacist. That was very foundational in just the back and forth of mentorship. I think it really set me up, not only my communication skills, but as well mentoring future professionals down the road.
Then, moving forward, I made some life decisions and wanted to be closer to home, which is where I grew up, which was Windsor, Ontario. I returned back and spent almost 20 years of my career in progressive leadership positions within that healthcare network, and just really understanding the gaps in care and also the quality improvements we were able to do. I used to joke that we were a small community hospital that thought it was a teaching hospital. Why not?

We would bring in some more advanced programs. I had a fantastic team there, the really progressive learners. I think it taught me so much about building those coalitions, not only interdisciplinary, but as well between different health partners in the area. I was really part of a regional network that we built up over many years. Breaking down barriers, building trust, it was all part of that evolution of the system. I'm happy to say that I know I made a difference and it really was quite important to me actually to go back to my home community and impact the lives of friends and family and people that I'd grown up with.

Philip De Souza: I love the fact that you mentioned about the coalitions and the building trust and the benefits to breaking down barriers. I guess I'll go off script here. Is there a piece of advice you'd give someone, leaders listening today? One thing that you really honed in on that allowed you to do those things in a way that people were, "Oh! Christine's coming to help us do XY zed," and it's not something that Christine's here to dictate to us what we should. Because sometimes when you're with coalitions, it's all about partnership and I know you thrive at that, that's why we called you on the show. Is there a piece of advice you would give to a leader listening, maybe even obviously in an urban center or rural area on how to foster good relationships and build that trust?

Christine Donaldson: That's a great question. I think what you've first start off with is always with that openness, the transparency. It's really the way you show up is it's seeking to understand to really want to know. I think when you're authentic and you're genuine, your true sense of purpose, which is, if I know what's happening and some of your challenges and some of the current best practices, we can shape it together and we can then learn from each other. It really opens the door to, as you said, break down any of those issues and that trepidation that often happens.

Fear is always there when change is happening, you never really know. You need to make it safe. To make it safe, it's all about how you approach it, really, again, with that true sense of, "I want to understand, so that I can then do my very best job to bring us all with that shared purpose." Because in the end, we look different a little bit on the outside, but we're really the same. I think that's really that spirit of getting in on the ground floor and really getting to know each other goes a long, long way towards that healthy new world that we're building for the future.

Philip De Souza: I love that you mentioned the way you show up and that shaped together. Even the words you're using make me feel like, "Yes! Christine, what can we do together?" But speaking of together, healthcare and procurement are tough industries to be in right now. Can you tell us about a day that really left you feeling moved, feeling like, "Oh, this is the reason why I'm doing, me and my team are doing what we're doing,."

Christine Donaldson: So many to choose from. I can think of a couple during the pandemic, where we had to really mobilize things quickly and get into the global world of fighting above our weight as a small country. I can remember some essential medications getting those calls saying, "Yes, yes, we've secured some vital medications for your patients," and honestly doing a happy dance in my backyard, because we're all working from home that time and thinking, "Okay, thank goodness I'm in this role and I can help move this mountain for patients everywhere." I think as well though, there's some unbelievable intersections when you have a certain interest and a passion for knowledge and then you see how you end up connecting with people in your network.

Philip De Souza: Christine, why is sustainability in procurement important to you?

Christine Donaldson: Sustainable products has always been an interest of mine. How do we really take the waste out of the system? Be more climate friendly. Look at greening our healthcare environment. It's always fascinated me back from my clinical days. I can remember doing an initial presentation and I quoted Dr. Fiona Miller. If you don't know Dr. Fiona Miller, I'm going to give a shoutout to her, because she does amazing work at the University of Toronto. She has a whole center for sustainable health systems. I had a fangirl moment when I met her, because she's someone I would quote and I would watch her work.

We started to talk and work together, because she does have a sustainable procurement as one of her targets and her key objectives of her work, because we have such an important opportunity to really move the needle here and create an appetite and an understanding of how some of these changes. Although it may seem very difficult or there's a ton of clinical work that has to happen behind the scenes, often there's simple intentional changes that can make a big difference in how we become more climate-friendly in all of our healthcare systems. But hospitals, of course, being the number one producer of some of the waste and the not-so-friendly ways of how we interact with the environment.

It was really one of those times where I thought, "Wow! We're starting to change mindsets. I actually can have a role in how we lead national procurement and putting this front and center and educating and making it important to a lot of our global suppliers and domestic suppliers." Again, pleasantly surprised to find out that there's so many who are already working on it behind the scenes and wanted to, again, at least elevate the work they were doing, and as well, help us just to connect those dots. Very proud to say that the way that we operate in our programs and all of our proposals.

At HealthPRO Canada, we actually now put that in in our scorecarding, so it becomes important to say, "You need to tell us a little bit more of what you're doing on the sustainability journey," and that helps raise your business profile as well, so we've made it a bit of a business, the win-win for the different corporations that we interact with. In our hospitals and the members we deal with across the country, they're keen to jump in so many ways. They're at different, again, stages of their journey, but they really want to have a say and, again, be a part of that movement. Really exciting. That's probably one of the most important things I think that we're really focused on right now.

Philip De Souza: I like the fact that you said it's like a collaboration, you're listening and working together with your partners. As the system evolves and, of course, as your role evolves, have you been noticing a lot of your members and the folks you and your team interact with? For example, maybe roles you wouldn't have seen 20 years ago in organizations now are you may see, you hear and learn of new roles like a sustainability officer, etc. How are you and your team tapping into those folks to then ... I hear our call about sharing knowledge, how are you tapping into those folks, so that perhaps there's a really cool innovation happening out west that everyone out east to learn about or rest of Canada? How are you sharing that kind of knowledge?

Christine Donaldson: One of our key pillars is to ignite stakeholder networks. Again, that's what we, very similar to yourself at High Rock, we were trying to again bring those bright minds, again, those folks who are right there understanding and every day in their practices what has to change and can change, and we want to help that sharing happen. As you said, sustainability. We're forming member-led committees now that are national. Again, people can plug in and hear about, as you said, these unique positions that are being created like sustainability officers as well, partnering with industry, again, government, all the stakeholders that intersect in our healthcare community, because they all have. Again, policy is part of it, how businesses operate are part of it, so we all need to again, get our arms around the full picture.
You brought up innovation, and again, that's a very powerful spark, I think, to get people together, because you see how we can, again, just jumpstart some healthcare improvement by using innovative products and services in a way we haven't before. Again, you see that power, as you said, of saying, "Well, if it's happening in the west or in the east or part of the country, why not? Why can't we, again, have some of the hubs a little bit more formally like the innovation products and the innovation projects we're working on shared and at least make it as simple as possible to take it and run with it?"

That would be, again, one of our objectives is to help optimize that, and again, break into those current structures, because that's one of the biggest things we hear for barriers to innovation is how do I get it to fit into my current practice and what are the clinical hurdles or any of the roadblocks? I think if you can see, there's been a business case that this province completed or this region has already gone ahead and done some of the heavy lifting. Okay, great, let's use that now to leverage and bring it elsewhere. I always like to say I want all Canadian patients to have the same access, the same, the best products, the highest quality, and how can we make that happen? Some of it is organic just as we describe by getting the right people together.

Philip De Souza: Absolutely. Given the ongoing global supply chain disruptions and other things that happen in the systems, how is HealthPro rethinking its strategies to ensure consistent supply for its member hospitals and partners? What new approaches are you and the team considering?

Christine Donaldson: It's a constant, as you said, surveillance and education, and we're always looking to improve. That's that cycle of continuous improvement. We're learning best practices from others, whether it's our EU partners or looking down to what's happening south of us in the US. Again, it's again a global community and I think that's really, really important to have disruptions in global supply issues. As we saw more than ever in the past few years, we have to understand that we're vulnerable. I think that the time is now. We've really appreciated that in a different way, so because of that, I think, again, everyone's ears are open. We are having more intelligent conversations around how to create, again, as you said, the future or the here and now towards building towards the future.

We've chatted a little bit already about how we can have a more sustainable system, which does impact the full scale of what we can offer to patients. Again, last thing we want to do is, we always say last thing we want to do with healthcare is harm. It's that whole idea of moving forward and making sure that our practices aren't actually providing issues with people's health in the end. Whether it's through some of the terrible stories we have to tell in the last few years of increased climate change and fires and all of those impacts to people's every day and the health of that community.
But really, what I think we're looking at those essential products differently, and I always like to talk about it. It's like you have this complete future vision of a critical product list that would say, "I can never do without having these essential goods to deliver, again, top quality healthcare to Canadian patients." Now, what do we do? Was it collective, or was it individual? Were we being proactive or are we being reactive? We're really, again, and we've created a playbook, actually, a supply chain playbook. I'm very, very proud to say now we've come up with some highlights of where we saw, again, communication breakdown, some processes that weren't working, and how can we now again create the appetite to say, "Let's get together and really figure out the how."

It's maybe we've come up with the what has to change and now we want to get to the next level of getting, again, very stakeholders together to talk about how we can shape things for your future. But it's that closer collaboration, and I think we're really seeing a different relationship with some of our, not only key stakeholders in government, but as well in business. Whether it's our medical device suppliers or pharmaceutical suppliers, we're bringing them in sooner and really talking about, again, that we conversation. How can we together create a good business for everyone to thrive in, so we don't, again, lose people from the Canadian marketplace, because it's no longer viable for them to stay. That's the worst thing that happens with supply chains. When you wake up and say, "Oh no, I didn't see this coming," and again, it's a vital product that we can't do without in our healthcare system.

Philip De Souza: It's so good you mentioned about the bringing them sooner, so then that way you'll have even better line of sight of what's happening in the supply chain and in other aspects of the system.

Christine Donaldson: Absolutely. Again, it's that openness. We really want to understand from each other what the challenges are and the risks, so that once we come in with that same appreciation for each other, I think, again, it opens doors, and then we start to talk really about solutions rather than, again, becoming a little bit guarded about sharing what may be challenging to you in the current marketplace.

Philip De Souza: I'm glad you mentioned risks. That's a [inaudible 00:18:05] about keeping an eye on risks, so I'm glad you mentioned that. With that, I'll take a slight pivot, because you're a leader that we've been keeping an eye on, because we value what you have to say and how you lead your team. I guess I'll ask you a bit more of a vulnerable question, but I guess, is there a mistake you've made along your career journey that's actually helped shape you as a leader, the leader you are today, like a lesson learned?

Christine Donaldson: This is the perfect segue into describing how we, as leaders, always look back to, as you said, those critical moments in our past. We'll never forget them for obvious reasons and what were the lessons learned. I had to do a very similar synopsis of this in my career. Just last week, I was invited to participate in a leadership course for pharmacy students, third-year pharmacy students, if you can believe, again, at my alma mater, the University of Toronto, and this is exactly how we started. We wanted to be shown as a little bit of the human side of leadership and we're all vulnerable and we never have a perfect journey, and that's part of how you learn.

The example I always bring forward is well over 10 years ago now. We had a significant medication error that occurred at the hospital that I was in. Of course, as director of pharmacy and leading that medication system at the time, it was devastating because it affected oncology patients, cancer patients in our system. It was one of those things where you really, again, have that moment of, "I can't believe this has happened." We weren't sure the time how significant it was as far as ... we knew there was a bit of a dosing issue, so in the end, we discovered that patients had not received the full dose of what they were supposed to for their chemotherapy.

At that time, again, your first instinct is to, right away, how can I jump right in? Be transparent. Disclose as much information as you can, and be real to the experience of what everyone's going through. A lot of it was with the teams having meeting with patients and families to really describe how we were going to prevent this from ever happening, but as well learning from it.
What was the lack of oversight? How did the system quote "fail" us? How could we understand that it's a very complex system, different moving parts? This is not an intentional mistake, but again, the last thing you ever want to do in your career is, especially as a healthcare provider, is to have an impact on patients' lives, and this added stress alone was something that you don't want to see. Then, as you can imagine, it was just looking at my career right now, it was a procurement error. It was through a decision to procure a newer product that came in. That's what led to a lot of this. It seems, again, that you go full circle. You think, "Wow! That was 10 years ago. I was in a very different role. Now, here I am as a leader of a procurement, a national procurement agency. I have a great role to play."

Again, making sure that we have the tightest systems, high quality review, we always want to take it to the next level, bring the bar up, and in this case, this error probably could have been prevented if we'd had a barcoded product and it had been scanned with the proper technology. Well, guess what? We do have some of those technologies in place right now, so the legacy of any of those issues or those mistakes is you move forward and you create the stronger, better systems moving forward. Now, as a procurement group, we have barcoding as a very important element of all of our pharmaceuticals. We're happy to say, we've drastically moved the needle forward.

I'm talking in the neighborhood of 30% or 40% increase from where we were before by many of our suppliers to, again, we've forced the error out of the system now by doing these higher safety elements. Again, this is the work that I think you look at and you say, "I don't know if I could have unraveled all of that many, many years ago when this happened." Yet, you look at how the system is, again, in very important ways, has created, again, that safety net. Again, I am much more confident that the work in committees I've served on and all the input I had in policy that led up to where we are today has made a great impact to patients.

Philip De Souza: Wow. Such an impactful story. I got chills when you mentioned that because you were on hand for the whole journey of this from the beginning in pharmacy and to where you are today, so you can truly look back and be like, "Wow!" I guess, on a personal level, how does that make you feel that something you saw that it was very clear that moved you, and here you are 10 years later where you and your amazing team are able to truly make an impact and change? How does that make you personally feel?

Christine Donaldson: I think, again, it gives you that sense of purpose. We always say that when in your career you want to have a purpose to the greater good of the system or greater good of what you do. I think what drives us, of course, we have a very important role and the whole machinery of how things have to operate. Procurement sometimes, you think of it, "Oh, it's a very basic need that's out there." Every day when you put in an Amazon order, we know that it's part of our life. Yet, again, you learn there's ways to optimize it. It's almost like we've used procurement, and I like to explain it this way. We're using procurement as a gateway, the pathway to create some better practices, because we can actually implement some of these systems or some of these elements.

I talk about scorecarding of how we're educating, how we meet with key stakeholders in both business and government. It brings everyone to that next level. I think that's an element I don't think I had expected in the role when I first started at HealthPro Canada, and yet, you know they can elevate it to that more important, the highest quality, the highest standards. What are the other best practices that you hear about across the globe? One of our goals is world-class. We want to be world-class procurement. That is, again, you want to know that because then, again, it gives you that drive to have an impact or direct impact on the lives of patients and the healthcare system, and that's what I think so many of our team motivates them every day. I'm so happy to lead an amazing group of people like that.

Philip De Souza: Absolutely. My colleague, Abi, did some research on you too. She's going to ask of you, pose a few questions your way as well. Abi?

Abi Sivakumar: Hi, Christine. It's great to meet you. You're constantly being recognized for your collaborative spirit at HealthPRO. Where does this value for collaboration stem from? What advice would you give to other healthcare organizations on implementing a collaborative culture?

Christine Donaldson: I think collaboration is all about, as it sounds, building relationships, openness, having a transparency. Again, I've used the word vulnerable a couple of times. It's meaning folks at the level that they're at. I think, again, you know this within moments when you interact with someone, as far as if that, again, that authentic self is coming forward. Yet, soon as you start engaging with someone, the very first thing that you need to do is, again, create, again, that opportunity for others and then sit back and listen. So much of what we do is sharing and exploring, which is fabulous, and, again, brilliant minds everywhere. Sometimes though, I know we often maybe just the sheer excitement of some of the work and already that framework that you're working within, you forget to just stop and listen to others. As soon as we do that, again, I think it turns on a different light inside of people. When you ask them, "Tell me something that you're working on that you're really excited about." We could have been back to going to a party, you can talk someone, they'll talk about renovating their garage. It could be anything.

But as soon as you connect with someone with a positive energy and an excitement, and again, in our healthcare space, it's so easy to do that. I meet with an industry partner. I say, "Tell me an exciting project you're working on right now that you want to share with me." Right away, you have a unique moment just to share in that enthusiasm and that excitement. Then likewise, it comes back to you and now, you exchange. I think too often we start off with contributing challenges and problems and issues, we have so many words that we use. I like to flip it on its head and say, "Let's talk about some of the positive first, get to a place where we can really understand each other. Then, of course, open doors and allowing everyone to contribute."

Often, I think, again, we hesitate, we're not sure, maybe the trust hasn't been built there, so you build the relationship. It then allows everyone to have full participation of full contribution. Their voices are heard, their ideas are shared, and then, let everyone develop their skills, up their game, so to speak, so that we all have a much more robust understanding of each other. But so many of those things are how we start, how we share, and how we, again, try to build a bit of a positive energy first, and then, I think then it opens up that more open framework to discuss some of the more challenging problems that we always have to get to next.

Abi Sivakumar: I liked your point about vulnerability, especially starting with the positives and asking about that, then working our way up to the more intense or serious questions. Switching gears a bit, HealthPRO recently registered as an Aboriginal procurement champion with the Canadian Council for Aboriginal business through your supply change program. Can you explain to our listeners what this means? Why is advocating for change in our healthcare supply chain so important to you?

Christine Donaldson: Thank you for calling that out. We're very proud of that collaboration and that connection with the CCAB. Really, it's a small, small way that we can, again, partner in a way that as a national organization, we have this ability to plug in so many, we have over 1300 healthcare members across the country. It allows them to also learn more about what opportunities are there for more of our Aboriginal businesses. I think everyone has goals to engage and to really, they're on their own reconciliation journey in a different spot. This is us just showcasing how we've now partnered. We are having opportunities to, again, plug into where their natural cycles are, so that we can, again, help our healthcare members understand that this is a tangible step they can take. We want to walk the talk as well. Even our choices as an organization, we're choosing aboriginal providers, even if it's something small like funding or supplying us a gift for some of our committees who have come. It's just those ways that you're doing it in a very unique and powerful way.

Then, again, I was back to this, sometimes you just think you're in the right place at the right time. I was recently at a conference and heard a chief, Chief Cadmus Delorme. He's a Saskatchewan actually. He did a beautiful job of explaining some of his journey and his intersection with both healthcare and just into the greater businesses across the country. He put up this, again, this wonderful slide that said, "Part of reconciliation is procurement. Part of our indigenous journey in reconciling where we're headed into the future is to do it through business partnerships." It was one of those moments, again, I felt like I was in the crowd for a reason and I spoke to him afterwards. I said, "That's such an important step that we talk about what we want to learn, but then it's how we act, and that's how we'll be measured going forward." This is, again, a way that we can just showcase different businesses, make sure our partners and our members know that they're out there, and then, hopefully again, connect them together to bring better healthcare systems into our hospitals.

Abi Sivakumar: Yeah, I appreciate you shedding light on the impact of procurement, because I feel it's something people may not know fully about, and having these conversations about uplifting different communities and creating a more inclusive health system is so important and is how change is made.

Christine Donaldson: Absolutely.

Abi Sivakumar: Our last question before our lightning round is, why is mentorship so valuable to you? What piece of advice would you give to professionals on either becoming a mentor or seeking out one?

Christine Donaldson: Yes. Those who are in maybe my position or my stage of career, you feel very fortunate when you're in that role of being a mentor to others. Yet, at the same time, you know that you've experienced great mentorship opportunities throughout your career that has helped you be the person and become the professional you are today and leader you are today. I think so often there's a little bit of trepidation. Again, I'm not sure who's the right person, what's the right match? How can I find someone that is going to be good for my growth and my learning? I guess my advice would be just start somewhere. Start throwing out invites, whether it's in your network or building your network, even something as simple as on LinkedIn. It's amazing how through just the initial, almost again, throwing yourself in there, you will start to learn more about other people.

As you talk to some trusted advisors already that and ask them for advice or help and support, they often will be the connector for you. I think that's one thing I'm always almost shocked and surprised and amazed. When you do ask for help, there's so many folks out there who want to be that leader or that mentor in your career and your development. If they're not the right person, they're quite ready to say, "I may not be either the right time or the right person for you. I will keep an eye out though, and I'm going to look for someone that I think will be a good match." More often than not, it happened very quickly that that matching happens. Yet, at the beginning, you have to have that, almost that opportunity or that vulnerability to say, "I'm looking for some support."

It's always a two-way relationship, and I think that's why so many mentors really embrace the role, is you learn as much from the person that you're mentoring as they do from you. It's a two-way street. It's part of that very healthy way of challenging each other and dialoguing. I think it's just a basic human need that we all want to lift others up and promote someone, especially if they're at the beginning stages of a new position or a new part of their career. There's great pride in helping someone along their way. We can all look back in our careers and say, "Oh, I know that one person. If it wasn't for them, I don't know if I'd be where I am today." I guess we all have that goal of being that person for someone else, and I think that's really what really helps you, again, take that first step, because I think there's some great individuals out there, and that's usually their response is I really want to be there for you, so I think just take that first step.

Abi Sivakumar: Yeah, a hundred percent. I love your points about just taking that jump and starting the journey and reaching out, because looking back, I feel the most intimidating part about mentorship, either being or having a mentor, could be that first step of creating that relationship and the how behind it, so I know our listeners will find what you said helpful.

Philip De Souza: You've had a very, really good career and your leadership, I can tell through your voice, your leadership style is very open and welcoming. Taking out the whole aspect of mentors, are there people in your life, it could be parents or grandparents or family or friends, that have really given you that spark to be who you are today, Christine?

Christine Donaldson: Yeah. I do have to do a shoutout to a dear friend and mentor that has helped me along my career throughout. He was a colleague when we were back in academia, teaching together, Dr. Zubin Austin. He's just a very, very well-respected and well-known colleague in the pharmacy profession. He has that exact goal, I think, is to lift up others. He's helped countless students and myself and my own career journey, as far as giving just really thoughtful advice and really believing in you as you are navigating these maybe difficult decisions of which way to turn or which way to go next.

There's someone like that who motivated me to take up a new career choice. He also help me to make some academic decisions and pursue a master's degree. You look back, again, all those things at the time seemed so challenging to decide, and yet you had someone that helped navigate you and every single one of those decisions proved to be valuable or was a very important aspect of the person that you became. Yeah, I think that's a great example of a colleague who has been with me through many, many years and is still someone I call upon for advice as a mentor in my choices going forward.

Philip De Souza: Aw, that's so nice to hear. Christine, we're going to ask, put you into the lightning round. We ask you a few questions and you can answer with one word or however long you want. I guess, my first question is, what was your very first job ever?

Christine Donaldson: My very first job ever, I was serving as a banquet waitress with my cousins and half my aunts, and I think my grandmother worked there as well at the Croatian Center, this was in Windsor, Ontario where I grew up. I remember it was an all night affair. You would serve everything from weddings to baseball banquets. I remember it very well because I was so excited I could get my social insurance card because you had to apply and you had to be, I think, 13 or 14 years old, whatever it was. It's my first job and we were paid $15 a night. $15 a night, and I was so excited to get my first check for $15.

Philip De Souza: Well, I'm sure it was a fun job because if you're at a banquet, we all know what happens at banquets. It's usually fun.

Christine Donaldson: There were some food fights. There's some epic food fights I can remember too, after everyone would leave and we'd have to clean up.

Philip De Souza: That sounds like fun. That's amazing. If you could go back to any moment in history, Christine, what moment would you want to land in?

Christine Donaldson: Maybe, from a historical leadership moment, I'd probably want to be on the march to Washington in 1963 with Martin Luther King and his I Have a Dream speech. I cannot imagine being there in person and feeling that energy of that excitement. That would probably be definitely one I would love to be transported back in time for. But probably just for fun and personally, it'd be the Live Aid concert probably back in 1985.

Philip De Souza: Okay, These are a good one.

Christine Donaldson: That was an iconic moment where probably the best, in my generation anyway, the best musicians played at Wembley Stadium and I would love to be in the crowd for that concert, living every moment of it.

Philip De Souza: I love those two moments. I'm going to join you.

Christine Donaldson: Absolutely.

Philip De Souza: Finish this sentence. If I wasn't in healthcare, I'd be a.

Christine Donaldson: I think I'd say world traveler and try to write about my escapades or something. You're paid to travel around the world. It's mostly, I didn't have a lot of time to do a lot of those bucket list items and see those places, so if that was my profession, and if you asked me if I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd probably say, yeah, hop on a plane and start traveling.

Philip De Souza: That's the one I'd do too. Two for two. Christine, if we told you tomorrow you could host a podcast of your own on any subject at all, so not healthcare and not procurement, what would your podcast be about and who would you want as your first guest?

Christine Donaldson: It would be towards where I really want to have an impact. It'd probably be Women in Leadership. It'd be how to, again, as I say, we have a unique position to lift others up and help take those important first steps and cultivate the right conditions and elevate others to really take on important roles. I know we've made great strides in the last little while to do that. I would love to be a part of that journey. Just fabulous women leaders would come to mind. I wish I could go back in time and bring back Ruth Bader Ginsburg and folks like that. I like to always quote Maya Angelou as such an inspirational poet of our time. I always quote her "When you know better, do better" quote, because I think that's so, so powerful.

Michelle Obama comes to mind. Some of these wonderful leaders today that I think we could really ... I know it's hard because it sounds like they have it all sorted out, but yet they're very human in the way they deliver their journey and explain how they fell into it and made it the very best and now are living that legacy on.

Philip De Souza: Well, I would definitely be a listener of your podcast. Well, I'm so happy we ended off on that, on your point about lifting others up, and I think that's a really great way that you closed the episode. Thank you so much, Christine, for talking to Abi, and I really appreciate you taking the time.

Christine Donaldson: You're very welcome. This has been a fabulous way to end my week as well, and I really appreciate the opportunity to share some of my thoughts with you today.

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