Zayna Khayat and Will Falk: Hanging Out with the Future

Covert art for episode with headshots of Zayna Khayat and Will Falk, Episode 43

(Access show transcript) For real change to happen in healthcare Zayna Khayat and Will Falk believe we have to say what needs to be said and build technology solutions that are easily usable by providers and patients.

Show Summary

Welcome to Healthcare Change Makers, a podcast produced by HIROC. I’m Ellen Gardner with Michelle Holden and Philip de Souza.

Today we’re talking with Zayna Khayat and Will Falk. Zayna is Vice President, Client Success and Growth at Teladoc Health. Will is a Senior Fellow at the CD Howe Institute and has an appointment at the University of Toronto as an Executive-in-Residence at Rotman. 

Zayna and Will have collaborated in many different ways over the years and delight in wading into the messy problems in healthcare.

They don’t always agree, but Zayna and Will are united in their desire to use technology to move care forward. That task, they readily admit is hard work. As they call it, the clash of the static and the dynamic – when the industrial age and technological age collide with not always pleasant results.

The real satisfaction comes from breaking down the barriers to thinking big and getting stuff done. The tools they’re using and approach they’re advocating doesn’t just improve access to care, it delivers culturally appropriate care to communities that have been isolated in the past.

It's all about hanging out with the future, something Zayna and Will agree is a highly privileged place to be.

Mentioned in this Episode

Transcript

Imagine you could step inside the minds of Canada's healthcare leaders, glimpse their greatest fears, strongest drivers, and what makes them tick. Welcome to Healthcare Change Makers, a podcast where we talk to leaders about the joys and challenges of driving change and working with partners to create the safest health care system.

Ellen Gardner: Welcome to healthcare change makers, a podcast produced by HIROC. I'm Ellen Gardner with Michelle Holden and Philip De Souza. Today we're talking with Zayna Khayat and Will Falk. Zayna is Vice President, Client Success and Growth at Teladoc Health. Will is a senior fellow at The C.D. Howe Institute and has an appointment at the University of Toronto as an executive in residence at Rotman. 

Zayna and Will have collaborated in many different ways over the years, and delight in wading into the messy problems in healthcare. They don't always agree, but Zayna and will are united in their desire to use technology to move care forward.

That task, they readily admit, is hard work. As they call it the clash of the static and the dynamic – when the industrial age and the technological age collide with not always pleasant results.

The real satisfaction comes from breaking down the barriers to thinking big and getting stuff done. The tools they're using and approach their advocating doesn't just improve access to care, it delivers culturally appropriate care to communities that have been isolated in the past. It's all about hanging out with the future, something Zayna and Will agree is a highly privileged place to be. 

Ellen Gardner: Welcome, Zayna and Will to Healthcare Change Makers, it's great to have you. Right now you're both involved in some really exciting projects around digital innovation, so I want to start by asking you about an exciting project you're working on now. Zayna, maybe you can start.

Zayna Khayat: Yeah. So, I'm pretty new to this organization, Teladoc Health, which is the world's largest virtual care company, I joined about five or six months ago. So, into a bunch of new projects, but not a lot I can talk details about just yet, because we're still ramping up. But the platform allows us to really enable new models of care either for virtual care, mental health and in chronic conditions. 

And maybe one I'll talk about is a partnership we just formed with Microsoft Teams. Microsoft Teams is what everybody in healthcare is using for all their everyday communication, email and meetings, especially virtual meetings. Of course, a lot of health systems turned on Teams to do virtual visits during COVID because everybody was scrambling, but it's not at all purpose built for a clinical engagement and so now our software is built into Teams. So, if you're a doctor or clinician, you're using Teams for email or for meetings internally with a little icon, you click in and now you're into our entire platform.

This is I think, is a big deal for everybody because we're just making it that much simpler for anyone to seamlessly be digital without having a switch from one platform to another, so I'm excited about bringing that to Canada.

Will Falk: The thing that really gets me going these days is working with young founder teams who are dealing with tough problems. Over the course of the last couple of decades, I've started investing in and working with companies and I've had the chance to work with some tremendous founder teams. Right now I'm working with two, one is Verto, which does digital twin technology and the other one is Chris O'Connor's latest gig First History, which is re-doing the way that we collect history information for new diagnosis. And both of those are just a complete blast.

Ellen Gardner: I know that you've been collaborating and working together for several years. So, how did you meet and how did you discover that yes, you both worked well together and shared a lot of things in common?

Will Falk: I don't remember how we met Zayna, how did we meet? I always knew about Zayna, but we were in the same circles and then we made this decision to do this intensive course at Rotman. Originally we offered the course in a week, which was insanity and then we turned it into a full semester course, which was more sane and did it for three or four years and had great student response from it.

Zayna Khayat: I'd say for me, what drew me to Will is like authenticity and just real talk. I find in healthcare, part of why I think most of why we're stuck is how people think, and I find we waste a lot of time on cliches and motherhood and just really inauthentic conversations that say all the good things, but don't get to the substance and we got to get to the substance, right? 

There's so much unfinished business, and I find Will is one of the only people who can delicately walk the dance between, saying what needs to be said and based on evidence, not on opinion, but we're respecting the receiver and where they're at in a way they can digest it and actually shift their thinking. Honestly Will, watching you do that over the years so delicately, that gave me permission to do so.

Will Falk: That's incredibly kind, and also the first time that anyone's ever called me delicate. I've tried to help on some of the thinking that Zayna has done over the years on aging, which has really, I think, laid the ground for the next generation of solutions in that space.

Philip De Souza: It's Philip here, I want to dig deeper into this. I like where the conversation's going and I wanted to know between the two of you, because I can tell you have a great amount of respect for each other and you guys just get each other. Has there ever been a moment where you disagreed and you're just like, ‘no, this is not, this is not right?’

Will Falk: Dozens of times, often in front of students. One of the great things about having to teach MBA students and other learners, frankly, is having to explain yourself in front of really smart people who are trying to dig into an area. In some of our courses, Zayna and I have come at different problems from different angles and that's great because having tension and disagreement up to a point is an important part of any creative process.

Zayna Khayat: Will and I are both driven by like, we just want healthcare to be better. It's not about us or our career or money or like really driven to make it better. And so if that's your go North, that's it. Like I'm on a discovery, I get challenged by Will and then I think differently, that's great.

Philip De Souza: How do you avoid group think then?

Zayna Khayat: I have antibodies to group think. Language is mindset, and I just find like we have to use words that cut through the clutter, even when I'm in a 100% agreement with the group, because it's just too easy to hide behind motherhood. I'll just give you an example. I was preparing for a panel this week and they're giving me this script and this is the answer they wanted me to have, healthcare's going to be radically transformed through compassionate collaboration and I'm like, "What are you talking about? How does anyone act on those words?" 

So, I just try to clear the clutter and then go against the group when it needs to, and again, I find Will you do a great job of just bringing clarity to these complex concepts with language and information that brings something new to the conversation.

Will Falk: Okay guys, enough mutual admiration let's get into some substance.

Ellen Gardner: I wonder going back in time, when you first started doing this work on the impact of technological change, what did that field look like? And did you get a lot of pushback from the beginning?

Will Falk: So, first off I was dragged kicking and screaming into technology because I was working with a New York based strategy consulting firm. It was called APM and we got bought, and this is like 1996. We got bought by Computer Sciences Corporation the year before I made partner, and so I went from being a strategist in academic medical centre to being a very small healthcare-focused segment of a larger system integrator and outsourcer. 

CSC was one of the largest in the world of that time, defense and military. But it was such a fascinating way as a strategist to then get pulled into digital. In those days, it was about patient-facing websites and linking up the information pieces. It became increasingly obvious in the late '90s and into the '2000s that real investments had to be made and of course the last two decades have been how those investments get made and linking things up.

Zayna Khayat: I don't think I ever had to pivot. If I look back even back to grade school, the common thread and any choice I've ever made career-wise, even personally, is I just go after the messy intractable problems. So that's, just my DNA for whatever reason, that's who I am. So, that's never a thing I've ever had to even intentionally decide to do or not to do, it's just what I do. And then when it comes to healthcare, there's a saying and caveat – “I'm vegan, but sacred cows make the best burgers”. So for me, as soon as I see the doubt, the skepticism. that it's impossible then like I'm like, "Time to double down. That's the lock and I got the key."

And then the other thing I often say, I used to give a lot of keynotes and stuff like that and so I have a rule of thirds when I give my talk: a third of the audience is going to have their arms folded, grumpy and say, "She's full of S-H-I-T this'll never happen, wow she's nuts." A third is like, "Tell me something I don't know, Zayna I'm so bored, I already know this, I'm already doing this, really?" And then a third is like, "Holy, my brain hurts, you've changed my mind, what do I do now? I'm questioning everything in my life." And that's kind of it.

Ellen Gardner: Zayna, you have a wonderful name for the people hanging on to the old way of doing things you call them the preservatives. I want to ask you how we are going to move away from that concept of place in healthcare. That we only believe good things in healthcare happen when people are in a place, in a hospital, in a hospital bed that we need to actually move beyond that. So, tell us how we can actually move those preservatives away from that fixed position.

Zayna Khayat: We're emerging from an industrial era and healthcare is just as much locked into an industrial age of static infrastructure for a service that is the most dynamic thing in the world. And it maybe was a little bit static before when people had one disease and they either died or got better and there wasn't the complexity and definitely not the volume. 

So, just this clash of the static and the dynamic. So it simply can't work and it won't work, and it's consistent with the rest of every other industry in the world that is emancipated from assets, physical assets that you get locked into that you just can't be locked into and those include labour assets. So, look, depending on the study and the context about 70% of care does not require you to be in the same place, full stop that could vary by, person by, situation but about 70%.

That's the big number folks, like 70% will be replaced by software and other tools that allows a truly hybrid model. 

The second thing with preservatives is I get it right, Will, I think you call these producer interests, but our obsession with facilities and also visits because visits are still time-sharing a place and a person's time, that's what a visit is, that's the currency of healthcare today. They're the poster child of how leaders and carers in these institutions get kinetically trapped in this industrial age mindset. They're going to doomed forever, be doomed to defend the model that allowed them to be so successful in the past. And I get that and that's it, so then I just work from that as a starting point.

Will Falk: Hospitals, generally speaking in Canada, had a very good pandemic. They were seen as highly reliable and important places and they did pretty well. The other thing is, is that the pandemic has really surfaced our labour shortages and it's become, I mean, we've been working people into the ground. Now, there's a variety of reasons that we've been doing that only some of which are pandemic-related, others are the kinds of productivity issues that accompany a change. I'll use Zayna language from an industrial age to an information age. 

Economically it is very clear that in spite of large investments in technology, we have not seen the gains in productivity from that technology that we would like to in healthcare. 
I actually am at a place where I think we're going to be building more hospitals for the next while, and I do think that as we make the move away from institutions, we need to consider how we build more reliability into our non-hospital, non-institutional partners.

Ellen Gardner: Will, just speaking about the labour problem and the fact that it really became acute during the pandemic, or we really realized we had a problem, we were pushing people to the edge. You dove deep and actually interviewed 100 frontline healthcare providers at the time of Wave Three. You did find some shocking things. What were you expecting when you did that? And what did you intend to do with the research you did?

Will Falk: In talking to people, many of whom were on the front lines as I was not during the pandemic, I was blown away by how hard people worked in spite of the technological choices that are available. We do not in this country and globally, this is true as well, we do not build healthcare technology solutions that are easily usable by either providers or patients. There is some great writing on this, but, and I'll grossly oversimplify, clinicians hate their computers. And these are not people who don't like technology, this idea that doctors don't like technology, it's just nonsense. We produce in our industry, terrible tech. Bob Wachter, the chair of medicine at University of California, San Francisco (UCSF) has written a great book on this called The Digital Doctor, I think the subtitle is “Why doctors Hate their Health Records”.

And there are other books on the same topic. 

What we've got right now is we've got a situation where we forced solutions and many of those solutions just failed during the pandemic. So, to Zayna’s point, Zoom and Teams got picked up and used. We're still at Wave Six, we're still somewhere between a third and a half virtual in terms of the services we deliver. I expect that's probably about where we're stabilized for the moment, at least until we bring messaging on. Now, the challenge is to make it work better, make it work better for patients, make it work better for clinicians.

Ellen Gardner: Zayna, I heard you on a recent talk show and you were talking about how technology is, it's accepted by a lot of the healthcare population, but there's a lot of people, a lot of clinicians and patients who aren't necessarily ready to jump in. And I just wondered if you had thoughts on how healthcare leaders and governments can really support people in making the kinds of changes that are needed.

Zayna Khayat: The answer to that is not get everybody to go to one thing, but rather what I call omnichannel or choice or having multiple modalities and just making them all work, which again is a tall order to ask from healthcare, which has been largely operating in one channel called ‘in person’. And then the other is for those though where it is going to need some, let's call it skilling up or education or capacity billing, whatever you want to call, there's a lot going on in that area. 

So, remember nursing used to have this thing called nursing informatics, because nurses touch pretty much every decision about every patient, and so they needed to be the army to kind of carry the informatics torch. Well, now that's becoming pretty ubiquitous, what John Nosta calls your TQ, your technology quotient is going to be the third leg of the stool with IQ and EQ.

Your emotional quotient and your intelligence quotient that's just how it is because we live in a digital world. So, I do find whether that starts all the way up to school or other enablement or us tool makers, us at Teladoc building in that capacity development co-design with both patients and clinicians, it's part of our product, there's just no way around it. So, I think that's how you get around it.

Maybe a reference if we're putting references in the podcast, Dr. Eric Topol, who's kind of one of these other gurus of the future and health and tech and innovation from Scripps. He did a pretty seminal study with the national health service in the UK, where they looked at all the jobs in the whole UK and I think, Will, if I'm correct, they're the third biggest workforce in the whole world.

Will Falk: A big anyone, anyway.

Zayna Khayat: One of the top three or four, maybe after Walmart and the Indian Rail workforce, and I think they concluded 90% of all the jobs we're talking in the millions will change because of what's, happening now and coming in tech, that's a massive re-skilling, retooling, of the current workforce, let alone how you breed and train the next generation. And so now they can now do a thoughtful strategy about the workforce that embraces this, instead of treats it like an add-on on the side and continues to train people in the old industrial era way.

Ellen Gardner: At Teladoc, you are working on some really interesting digital transformation models in rural Saskatchewan. And I want to ask you, why is a rural place, as opposed to say a Toronto or a Montreal, a good place to implement these models?

Zayna Khayat: I'd say there's two reasons. I mean, first at the core is access. At the end of the day that’s why are we in healthcare is to deliver care, and if you can't even access it in the first place, there's a major substrate to help really move things forward. So, because again, in the industrial area care was constrained by place and time, as soon as our tools can decouple time and place from care, you've really got a game changer for access because that's been the bottleneck. 

So that's one where we can actually help a lot of people get care and a lot of people who care about people, by delivering that care without having to be physically co-located. The second though, I find why I love working, what I call off the grid, whether that's rural or just out of the big centres, is I find that's where I find the least barriers to just thinking big and getting stuff done.

Resources are constrained, so people don't have time to have a committee, to have a task force, to write a paper, to do an analysis, to then wait six layers of approval, just to make a decision, they just kind of get on with it. They're really there to do the best stuff for staff and patients, and they're not there to optimize for themselves and protect the past. So I just like working in that environment, they get on with it and it makes me feel like I'm not wasting my time doing a lot of bureaucratic stuff and my unit of time is actually moving care forward. So, it's like a double win of improving access and actually getting stuff done.

Ellen Gardner: Have you gone even further into rural and remote communities? I'm thinking about First Nations communities, communities that are in the north where access is a problem. But it's not only access, there's other problems as well that they don't want to necessarily use the traditional modes.

Zayna Khayat: Yeah. So before, we were doing pediatric neonatal ICU using our tools where a little child in a Northern Saskatchewan, if they literally need an ICU, don't have to get flown in 600 kilometres away to the centre in Saskatoon, we can fully take care of them with our neonatologist sitting in Saskatoon. Now, we're working on using our tools, how do we design culturally appropriate care for rural and remote First Nations communities? Well, beyond this high acuity use case, but like everyday care, including acute care. So, that a child in a First Nations community doesn't have to go to those white people centre in Saskatoon, because there's a whole lot of trauma with the history of leaving your community to go to where the white people are. So, we're working on, how do we use a broader set of our tools to literally enable people to fully stay in their community no matter what the acuity of this situation is.

That's less about the care delivery and more about everything you just talked about, cultural sensitivity, language, empathy. All these other parts of access that are not about just having access to a clinician.

Ellen Gardner: That's a very positive story. Will, did you want to say anything about that?

Will Falk: I want to pick up on the equity theme, on equity in virtual care. The rural and the Indigenous pieces are well understood, and you guys have done a nice job of describing that. Less obvious to people is the impact on hourly wage, wage-earning employees and on families and people taking care of older adults. Infoway has been doing really good work on this, and they have some results that are not yet published, but are being published in May, so I'm going to talk about them. They have now estimated based on 2021 data, that the average cost of a physical visit is $99 for the average visit with outliers taken out. 

So, taking out the big outliers, the big travels, they've said it's $99 per visit for most Canadians to see a doctor. That's $25 for care for a dependent, $40 in lost earnings, $24 for travel costs, gas and parking and public transit, and $10 other.

Those are big numbers, right? We don't often think about it that way, but if you think economically about the fact that a public visit to a free provider costs the average Canadian $99, well no wonder that I mean, that's a big barrier for a lot of people. And if we are serious about equity and sorry, I should add, obviously there are a lot of people for whom it's a lot more than $99, but if we're serious about equity, we've got to really ask the question about what it is we are doing insisting people get a babysitter and lose four hours of income in order to access a doctor.

Zayna Khayat: And I'll just add two other points to that from my personal lived experience, being the caregiver for a lot of family and myself. You show up after spending the $99 and only to be told, "Everything's fine." Or now, "Go see another specialist, you need to go do another test.” So, it's like, what's the utility of that in-person visit, right? So, it's a double tax. Another one point I'll just make, which may be in the next podcast I'm starting to see and again, because we're global and we're the world's biggest virtual care company, the next thing that comes after this equity thing is going to be the environment.

Healthcare is among one of the biggest polluters and wasters and the ROI to carbon of, again having an asset lighter version of doing the main currency of care, which is these visits is going to start to become part of the dashboard and the KPI and the index and the measurement. Every healthcare delivery org is going to have to have just as much responsibility to equity as to the environment as they do to equity and all these other really important external factors in society.

Will Falk: We're picking up on something here that I think is really important. I actually think that the change like being short of talent, being short of hospital beds, needing to care about pollution is a different way of solving the problem than we would've even talked about three years ago. 

I'm not conceding the compassion high ground to anyone who's advocating physical care over virtual care, because it is not at all clear to me that the compassionate answer for most people is to insist that they show up in your office, when other alternatives exist. And it certainly isn't compassionate if they have to travel 500 miles. I don't want to say that we're not going to have physical care or that laying on of hands isn't really important, because it is.

Ellen Gardner: Are you both optimistic that we're moving in the right direction, that there's good things happening and that even if we have to move completely into virtual as a way to reduce our costs, is it going to happen?

Zayna Khayat: So in my view, I think just the basic transactional noise, like of digitizing a bunch of processes that frankly should have been done 50 years ago, this is becoming the norm and not the exception anymore. That's my feeling in the trenches and again, not innovation, not transformation, this is just good business process optimization. 
So, I think what I'm excited about next is as I'm seeing the leaders who did that, they now have an intelligence-based health system, because every unit of transaction produces a digital exhaust. It's information, it's data, and your learning cycles get faster and faster and better. 

And then I think that's where we're going to start to actually see just better care, better care, not cheaper care, not better access. We're just going to be way smarter about what we do, and I feel we're at a tipping point, but Will you're maybe closer to it than I am, I don't know.

Will Falk: I guess where I'm coming down is that we made a lot of progress, it's time to push the thing over. We are still the only group now after the pandemic, we're still the only group still using fax machines, bankers and lawyers and real estate agents gave up on the fax machine during the pandemic only healthcare didn't. I think that's a considerable patient safety issue and one that we should tackle in the next two years.

Zayna Khayat: The technology is moving so fast, like we're in the air of communication technology and so I find healthcare also locks into the modality of the day, makes that law and then we're stuck with it. So, it was fax when, and then ‘tele’ this word tele in front of... Why are we saying tele that implies telephony? It's like no one says telecommuting anymore, that was the thing of the '80s.

Will Falk: And what is a portal?

Zayna Khayat: So, they get locked in a portal and even asynchronous text virtual care it's either video or phone. No, it's not. So, Teladoc just announced we're now bolted onto Amazon Echo, so now you can initiate and engage with your clinician all through voice with no, you're emancipated from any keyboards. It all gets written in the EMR. What's that? Is that text? Is that video? Is that chat? Where do we regulate that one? So, soon it's going to be metaverse which big healthcare orgs are working on. You're going to have all these modalities all the time, tele holoportation, so I just think that's another one I worry about. 

I looked at the Ontario Medical Association agreement where they've decided these three modalities are going to get priced by the minute. I'm like, those are gone in two years guys, keyboards are going to be gone. There'll be no apps, no laptops, no iPads then what?

Will Falk: By the way, the answer to what is a portal is a portal is a small round window into a ship usually near or below the waterline.

Ellen Gardner: A final question for you both is. I want to ask you guys, if you've ever had a question you've wanted to ask each other, but haven't yet asked?

Zayna Khayat: I've got one will.

Will Falk: Okay, go ahead.

Zayna Khayat: I look at like all the different major projects you've been part of and initiatives, would you point to one that you would say would be the one where you've had the biggest impact on Canadian healthcare?

Will Falk: Obviously, the thing that I'm very proud of at the moment and talking a lot about is the report that I did last summer for Health Canada that talked about some of the topics we're doing here on virtual care. I mean, I've been thinking about those modernization questions back since I worked with Matthew Mendelsohn and the team at the Mowat Centre 10, 12 years ago. And it's really been very satisfying to be able to think about that and have the chance to do a work that was translated into both official languages and got broad circulation. 

I guess my question for you, and this is probably a work in progress to Zayna, but I'm really excited and curious to hear where Teladoc fits in the aging population, because you did the book on aging a while ago. I'm sure that as you've come to Teladoc, you've been thinking about it any early insights that I haven't had the chance to ask you about.

Zayna Khayat: As you know, I mean the company started in the way it grew was in the US market where the employer pays for care, so Teladoc could come in and create a great offering and experience at a lower cost with better outcomes. So it's a pretty slam dunk value prop for an employer. But that's a generally young population. 

Now that Teladoc's moving into the entire end-to-end care model for anybody that is where we're going next. I can't share too much more, but having someone like me and we also recruited Ozzie Ballurchi, who was the head of innovation at Rivera, so you have two of the top aging innovation people, I think for sure in Canada, are now part of the Teladoc team. We are now getting brought into the R & D engine on our aging and care at home offering. So that's, pretty exciting. Maybe in a year, you'll see a little bit more.

Philip De Souza: For someone listening to this episode today, whether they're a frontline worker, a leader, whomever, a student, what's one takeaway you want them to do to help with that – we  both mentioned the tipping point – to help push and get this healthcare moving and more action, more impact. What's something they could do you think?

Zayna Khayat: I can go first.

Will Falk: Yeah, go ahead Zayna.

Zayna Khayat: I coach people on this all the time. So, not everybody has the ability to hang out in the future the way me and Will. One hundred per cent of what we do is creating the future, it's a very privileged place to be and damn is in hard work. I always say, I have a collaboration hangover every morning. But no matter where you are, wherever, student, administrator, clinician, department chair, I don't care. I always say at least 10% of your capacity, that's a half a day a week at a minimum has got to be blowing up the past and putting it together for the future. 

You’ve got to be spending and hanging out some time there because every minute you're not doing that, every minute you're reinforcing the status quo, you're actually making a wider gap between where we need to be and where we are. So that's my advice.

Will Falk: Mine is for both the average Canadian or the patient and for the providers as well, take control of your technology, don't look to others to solve your user problems. And I guess that the negative re-statement of that would be, don't be a tech victim. If your technology that you are using in your healthcare experience sucks, get rid of it. Actively advocate to get rid of it and get something better, don't simply accept bad tech, you don't have to suffer.

Ellen Gardner: I really want to thank you both for just a really engaging and enthusiastic a conversation. Thank you so much for talking to us today.

Will Falk: A real pleasure. Enjoy the rest of the day.

Zayna Khayat: Yeah, that was fun. And Ellen, I can't believe you harnessed in me and Will that's a miracle so well done.

Ellen Gardner: You have just been listening to our interview with Zayna Khayat and Will Falk. Zayna is Vice President, Client success and Growth at Teladoc Health, Will is a senior fellow at The C.D. Howe Institute and has an appointment at the University of Toronto as an executive in residence at Rotman. For more information about HIROC and to listen to past episodes of Healthcare Change Makers, go to our website, hiroc.com. Thank you for listening.

Thank you for listening. You can hear more episodes of Healthcare Change Makers on our website HIROC.com and on your favourite podcasting apps. If you like what you hear, please rate us or post a review. Healthcare Change Makers is recorded by HIROC's Communications and Marketing team and produced by Podfly Productions. Follow us on Twitter at @hirocgroup or email us at communications@hiroc.com. We'd love to hear from you.