Susan Bisaillon: Share Frequently and Share Freely

Cover art of Ep 44 with Susan Bisaillon, CEO of the Safehaven Project for Community Living

(Access show transcript) Growing up in Corner Brook, Newfoundland gave Susan Bisaillon the courage to embrace her strengths and share her knowledge, essential skills for leading an organization dedicated to protecting vulnerable people.

Show Summary

Welcome to Healthcare Change Makers, a podcast produced by HIROC. I’m Ellen Gardner with Philip de Souza.

Today’s guest is Susan Bisaillon, CEO of The Safehaven Project for Community Living. Susan started her career in healthcare as a nurse in St. Anthony, Newfoundland, later moving west to St. Joseph’s Health Centre in Toronto, then to UHN where she worked as a clinical nurse specialist and nurse manager in the CCU. She moved on to direct the Neuroscience Program and oversee Clinical Operations at Trillium Health Partners. 

Before joining Safehaven, Susan was the Chief Operating Officer at Oakville Trafalgar Memorial Hospital.

She grew up in a small community in Corner Brook, Newfoundland, and says it was a strong sense of curiosity and desire to keep learning that motivated her to move to the bigger centres. 

Early in her time at Safehaven, Susan and her leadership team noticed the lack of education and support for people working in the community. The subsequent development of education programs has moved far beyond their walls to the point where the organization is now seen as a leader in the delivery of education.

In recognition of their role as Infection Prevention and Control Lead Champion for Toronto Region during the pandemic, Safehaven received the Celebrating the Human Spirit award from the Canadian College of Health Leaders. HIROC is proud to play a role in supporting that award. The award goes to an organization that provides acts of caring and compassion that go above and beyond – and a profound and lasting impact. 

Mentioned in this Episode

Transcript

Imagine you could step inside the minds of Canada's healthcare leaders, glimpse their greatest fears, strongest drivers, and what makes them tick. Welcome to Healthcare Change Makers, a podcast where we talk to leaders about the joys and challenges of driving change and working with partners to create the safest health care system.

Ellen Gardner: Welcome to healthcare change makers, a podcast produced by HIROC. I'm Ellen Gardner with Michelle Holden and Philip De Souza. 

Today's guest is Susan Bisaillon, CEO of The Safehaven Project for Community Living. Susan started her career in healthcare as an RN at St. Joseph's Health Center in Toronto, then went to UHN where she worked as a clinical nurse specialist and nurse manager in the CCU. She moved on to direct the neuroscience program and oversee clinical operations at Trillium Health Partners. Before joining Safehaven, Susan was the chief operating officer at Oakville Trafalgar Memorial Hospital. She grew up in a small community in Corner Brook, Newfoundland and says it was a strong sense of curiosity and desire to keep learning that motivated her to move to the bigger centers. Early in her time at Safehaven, Susan and her leadership team noticed the lack of education and support for people working in the community.

The subsequent development of education programs has moved far beyond their walls to the point where the organization is now seen as a leader in the delivery of education. In recognition of their role as infection prevention and control lead champion for Toronto region during the pandemic Safehaven received the Celebrating the Human Spirit Award from the Canadian College of Health Leaders. HIROC is proud to play a role in supporting that award. The award goes to an organization that provides acts of caring and compassion that go above and beyond and have a profound and lasting impact. Welcome Susan to Healthcare Change Makers. It's a pleasure to have you.

Susan Bisaillon: Oh, thank you. I'm really glad to be here today.

Ellen Gardner: So really to start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do at Safehaven?

Susan Bisaillon: Okay, great. So a little bit about me, I'm originally from the east coast, from Newfoundland. I moved to Ontario several decades ago, part of that whole brain drain from the east coast up to Ontario. And I was a nurse working in critical care. And over the years really advanced my career mostly in large academic health science centers, started at UHN at St Joe's and then progressed through various leadership roles in hospitals. And in the last five years, I was asked to come in to really help with this community organization who cares for children with complexities to see how I could really do some transformation work.

And I was also very passionate about, I do have a son who has special needs. So there was a bit of sort of alignment to purpose. And I think I was at the stage in my career where I thought, yes, I can come. The continuum of care for individuals with complexities is really not developed well in Ontario. And I just felt that the timing was there to be able to make some changes that could potentially help other families and individuals in the community.

Ellen Gardner: Can you tell us about your upbringing and what sparked your interest in healthcare?

Susan Bisaillon: Well, it's interesting. Like I come from a small community in Corner Brook. I think the population has actually gone down since I left. It was probably around 30,000 people at that time. So small community, very sort of, I would use the word well knitted, everybody knew everyone. I think graduating from high school, I mean, there wasn't sort of what I would say, career counseling in my, at that particular time, but really what we saw was most of the females, I went to an all girls school, we went in teaching or nursing or secretarial science.

So I thought, for me I really thought that I could really embrace sort of nursing. I thought like a caring profession, helping others sounded really great. And the good thing was then in our local community we had a school of nursing, Western Memorial Regional Hospital School of Nursing. So I went there to do my nursing, which was then attached to a hospital school of nursing, which nowadays doesn't exist. So that's where I did my nursing diploma. And then I went to Memorial University in St. John's and completed my bachelor of nursing degree. So I was very well armed I guess, by then having my diploma and my degree, and then, but I did want to pursue further education. So that's why I came closer to, we call it Central Canada in Ontario.

Ellen Gardner: You made a very dramatic shift in your life, just in terms of going from a small town. I know you went to Memorial, which is a significantly sized university, but all of a sudden you're in downtown Toronto, you are a clinical nurse specialist and nurse manager in the CCU at the Toronto Hospital. Then you moved into director and COO roles at Trillium and Halton Healthcare. So you moved into very big complex healthcare organizations, did you feel that you were prepared for that kind of transition?

Susan Bisaillon: Well, it's interesting. I always have this real strong sense of curiosity and a strong sense of learning, wanting to learn more. So I was one of those individuals, I guess, is some people may find it more fearful. I actually get excited by the challenge of something that's different, unique way of learning. So coming from a small community, I definitely was very well grounded in terms of who I was and my purpose and what I was all about. So coming to Ontario, I was excited by the volume. I was excited by the academic health science center. I loved working at UHN and at Trillium and Oakville, they were great hospitals to work in. And I think that sense of curiosity and always trying to learn and my knowledge of health systems and program management and quality and safety and risks really grew.

So I feel that I just have achieved such a lifelong learning by starting in some of these really amazing hospitals, both as a frontline nurse of critical care at St Joe's. And then when I was at UHN in the Peter Munk Cardiac Center working as a clinical nurse specialist and then a manager in the coronary intensive care units and the cath labs and the cardiac program, it's just been an amazing, when I look back was amazing career and every single touchpoint position along the way has given me more and more sort of tools in my toolkit to help prepare me for being a better healthcare leader.

Ellen Gardner: Susan, you and your team recently launched a new strategic plan. And the focus is on partnership, advocacy, community, and education. It also emphasizes your work as bold change makers in this space, which of course we love that word. Can you tell us how the plan came together and why you felt you needed to update it at this time?

So it, again, like when I started at Safehaven five years ago, again, very much grassroots organization. And I felt that a lot of what the work I was doing was really helping bring the organization forward, helping professionalize it. So we had, what I would say was our first real strategic plan in 2017 to 2022 and interesting I was very committed to the transformation work back then and worked with the board and said, I really would like to take the organization here to actually have across the age spectrum, really bringing up the quality. We were not an accredited organization and we did all that. And then now the next phase, I call it Safehaven phase two is about continuing that transformation. And I think that where I am now, when I compare myself to other parts of the continuum, like working at acute care, intensive care, complex care, transitional care that we're linked with the hospital, I do think the next big frontier is community care.

Susan Bisaillon: And I see it every day. It's tough work. So this notion of revolutionizing care and how care is delivered in the community, I think is going to be a significant system transformation for all of us, especially in Ontario, where we're starting to work on the integrated care approach. One of the big things that when I first came here and I would say a real aha in the first month was the lack of education and support for workers in the community. Many of them, very different backgrounds, many of them have degrees, but not degrees in healthcare. They also may not have had the opportunity. Like I think coming from large centers, there's always a lot of education. So people were thirsty for education. We developed a strong education program, but what really happened over that transformation in the last five years is then people saw us as an ability to provide others with education.

So people have been reaching out, can you help us with this? Can you help with education here? So we even are doing more education beyond our walls. So I think that was a very big component for the next five years. Attracting and retaining professionals is critical. I think the last six months we're seeing a huge shifts. Some of it, obviously because of the pandemic people cycling out, but there's going to be a need for really looking at the healthcare worker and the frontline worker of the future very differently. So we really started looking at our strategies in terms of how we bring people on, how we educate those individuals and really the retention piece because there is certainly a lot of sort of individuals that are being sort of pulled in different directions. So that piece looking at education, who we hire attracting, revolutionizing care, we have to look at the care models in the community.

I think that historically there's been a lot of fragmentation, especially across the continuum. When we look at care, care certainly predominantly the acute care and the rehab and post-acute occurs in other settings, but for individuals who have chronic disease and complexities, the huge component of that care occurs at home in a community. So we're really going to be doing deep dive into looking at what that model of care is and needs to look like and really trying to build in the quality and safety in the home and the community for families. And the last priority is really expanding capacity and choice. Many of our clients were not expected to live into adulthood and with medical advances in technology and living in a city like Toronto, where we have world class medicine so close to us, we're seeing people living and thriving with challenges. So for us is really looking at how do we grow and how do we expand our services and choices that really give those individuals the best life and the best choices. So lots packed in that strategic plan for the next five years.

Ellen Gardner: For many people who don't have close relationship with somebody with complex needs, it's difficult to imagine the kind of obstacles that people with those needs have to go through in navigating our world and certainly organizations like Safehaven and Holland Bloorview. You make a huge difference, but maybe you could paint a picture for us of what it's like for your clients.

Susan Bisaillon: I would give an example of maybe even some of the most vulnerable. We care for individuals who really are under, they could be at birth been given up for adoption or they have or for various reasons, either both parents pass away or there's an impact to their caregivers where there's nobody to care for. So take an individual who had a single parent and that single parent passed away. They have medical complexities. We then are working with our programs that are government programs around social services to work with them. But think of that individual going through a system where they have complexities related to say cerebral policy or neurological disorders, there's a lot of follow up with specialists trying to connect the dots with primary care, specialty care. Many of our kids could have three and four specialists, respiratory, neurodevelopmental.

It could be any type of specialist depending on what their issues are. And when you look at our system, how our system works, our system right now is not integrated. We have acute care, we have post-acute care. We have community care, which we're in congregate and we have home care. But when you look at the focus of that individual who has complexities and needs components in all of those particular systems, there is no navigator. There is no kind of 1800 number to call to say, Hey, I need X. So the complexity in trying to navigate a system that's fragmented and a system that doesn't look at it from the focus of an individual or an individual who has complexities is very, very complex. And I think that's the work that I know we're doing. We partnership with Holland Bloorview and SickKids and other hospitals to say, okay, we need to do better.

Like we've got all these pieces and how can we organize it? And even within one system, even if it's just acute care or rehab or whatever, if you have multiple complexities, you could be seeing many different specialists. So you could be spending a lot of your time going for appointments. Even our booking system, like our booking systems for the most part are not very well integrated. So you could have three and four appointments a month on different dates. So they really, that notion of people used the language, person-centered care and I think that's where, when I think about a particular client take that one who's part of a system, who doesn't have family, who's in our care, like there is so many pieces that then we have to coordinate. So I think that's where our goal is to try and make sure that we do that. We do that as well as we can given the system because we know if we don't do that well, that could impact the outcome for that person.

Ellen Gardner: I know for anybody thinking about putting a parent into long-term care, there's a really complex process of navigating how you work within that system. And it does sound like with children or adults with complex needs, it's the same kind of challenges. There's no clear path and that Safehaven often has to work as a navigator. Would you say that that's true?

Susan Bisaillon: Definitely. And like we don't call it care coordination, but it is about care coordination and interesting when you think about that parent who's senior, who's in the hospital in acute care. Who's now you've determined that they're going from hospital to long term care. We all know the complexities with that. And that's just one transfer from hospital to long term care. Think of somebody who's living with complexities and disabilities, who needs the services of all of those departments, because you'll always need to have support from acute care. There's sort of these periods of acute on chronic. There's also periods where you may need strictly rehab where you have more kind of restorative care and then there's care in the community where you're trying to maintain that optimal functioning and physicality. And then our goal is that try to let these kids have fun and go to school and participate in a way that, it's not all about appointments and care. It's about living your best life.

Ellen Gardner: Can you share an example of a recent project or achievement that really shines a light on how Safehaven is working to close some of those gaps?

Susan Bisaillon: When the pandemic started several years ago, what I found sitting at the table in Toronto region and really sort of working with all my other CEO colleagues. There was probably like, there was many, many CEOs like 40 plus just a Toronto region in congregate care. And what I found interesting was I never really thought I would be using my background in health in this way in the community. But I realized that a lot of the other CEOs did not have that affection control background. I'm a nurse by professional background and things that I would do, which would be sort of just part of my everyday functioning and say, well, we need to think about this and this, but those, my colleagues didn't have that. So we were immediately sort of, I think when we looked at, within the first few months, I saw this as an opportunity for us to really reach out and reach deep to help other agencies and the Ontario government set up a fund called the COVID Residential Relief Fund.

So I applied to that fund and part of that fund, then I hired a team of specialists. I actually hired one of my former medical directors for infection prevention and control, who was also a microbiologist. And I hired an epidemiologist and we hired a team of nurses to really help the Toronto region. So we started off, actually we developed an education series on infection control. We started doing, helping people who were in outbreak by doing site visits and helping them set up their sites. Because like I said, their knowledge around infection control in an environmental perspective was very limited. And then it grew. So then we started with education for the sector. I started doing leadership debriefs every week with all the CEOs and the operational leaders. And then like we started doing the onsite work, eventually that spread to, we were doing vaccine clinics.

We helped the Toronto region with our academic partners in terms of the home bound individuals. And initially it started in developmental services, which is people who have intellectual, physical disabilities in the Toronto region. And then we were asked to take on a leadership role as the IPAC lead champion for Toronto region where we started to help other sectors. So we were asked to help the youth justice sector, the anti-human trafficking, the indigenous groups in Toronto. We started, we worked very closely with the young infant and parent and the violence against women's sector. So a lot of the work that we did was transferable to those sectors. So we really invited those people in. We did the same thing we did in our developmental sector. We did vaccine mobiles and a lot of work to help impact the community at large in Toronto region.

Ellen Gardner: Congratulations on that work, Susan. It really, it does sound like you, it became much bigger than you had originally thought, but yeah as you say, you definitely had an impact. In fact, in 2022, you were awarded the celebrating the human spirit award from the Canadian College of Health Leaders. HIROC supported that award and we congratulate you and Safehaven for that. So wonderful work and the award is given to organizations that provide acts of caring and compassion that go above and beyond, which really does describe your IPAC program. What did winning the award mean for you and your team?

Susan Bisaillon: It's really interesting. Like I was so proud of the work that the team had done. I mean, I know I'm their CEO, but I really feel that I follow these individuals because what I saw was people giving so much during a very challenging time. And when I reflect back on some of the pictures, I have a poster that's just hanging on my wall here from one of the women's shelters who sent us a poster with thanks. I just think that, I think out of something that was so difficult for all of us that we were able to tap into a resource that we had and share it.

And I think it was shared with a lot of feeling, a lot of sort of desire to help vulnerable people. It was done with the intention of keeping people safe, preventing people from harm and dying during this difficult time. So I think winning from HIROC is very special. I think HIROC is an organization that we all look to. It's an organization that really helps keep us safe on track. There's so much in terms as that provider for us that we connect with HIROC. So having that award from HIROC that really recognized the spirit of the work that was done in the last two years is incredibly meaningful.

Ellen Gardner: I want to just ask you about your leadership skills and you've worked in some really high pressure situations, director of neuroscience and ED of clinical operations, being a frontline nurse manager, how have you helped your teams manage the stress and how do you keep them motivated when they're in very stressful situations? Do you have any specific tips or techniques that you've developed and would like to share?

Susan Bisaillon: The last few years have been a real pressure box for all of us. And I think having outbreaks and having staff be sick and working short has become a regular reality. I think we embrace the periods like right now. Today we're sort of on the downward trend of wave six, but when I think of some of those periods, wave five and six, especially wave five around Christmas time, it was very intense. And I think at that time, I think during those periods of intensity when you're having a lot of, I would say pressure from sick time and even infections and even other challenges that come forward. I think is really being highly connected. I think one of the things that really helped us was we had a Huddle model that we use every day. We accelerated those Huddle calls and really just for myself, I know making sure that I was present, I was there, we were communicating, totally available, but it was really hard.

And it was very hard when staff were struggling and what I certainly see that we did, which help when we protected each other, there was periods where people were not coping as well. And sometimes being a bit of a mirror for those individuals and say, okay, I think maybe today you can sit out today. Like it was really sort of being eyes and ears for all of us. Because there was times when you had to be in, you couldn't sit back, you had to be in, but as having that recognition and that visual feel to be able to say, okay, this person needs to sit out for a week or a few days. So I think those high touch, high connections were really important. I think the other piece we did was, I know our board has been great.

Our community has been great in terms of just small touches. I know after a while, like getting the care packages or something, it may not sometimes take away that stress, but it let the staff know that we understand that this is not ideal. You're working under difficult circumstances, but it was a way to help them feel supported. And we did, like I said, we did other things like we do work with Heron group. So really tried to have those leadership engagement discussions focusing on taking time for yourself, self care, looking at the resilience, how do we build resilience, try to maintain it. So I think when we were able to kind of take some time as a team, especially the leadership team was really helping them get some skills that they could then help with the frontline staff. So I think all in all we did lots of different strategies and I think that no particular one or there was no magic bullet, but certainly all together, it sort of really helped give that sense of support. And we did have a feeling that we're all in this together.

Philip De Souza: It's Philip here. It's been a great conversation. I'm enjoying it. And Susan, you're definitely a seasoned leader hearing your background and even everything that Catherine, our CEO has mentioned about you. And so I guess picking up on just your last answer here, the last question... you're an amazing leader. Where did you pick up these great leadership skills that you've kind of honed and are teaching others in your career? Did you have a mentor who taught you these things? Did you get it from a book? Did you take a course? Did you see it on TV? Where did all this amazing, these leadership skills come? How did you get them?

Susan Bisaillon: I would say all the above. I do think that when I think back up growing up in a small community in Newfoundland, a very kind of strong mother who encouraged the girls, so to speak, to reach for the stars. I think that was always something that was from an early age was kind of like embrace your strengths. You can do anything. And I think that that kind of grounding was always there like when I think about growing up in that small community. And then I think when I came to Ontario, working in the system here and working in the environments I did, there was so much exposure to opportunities like leadership opportunities, education, like going through the master's program at U of T and then also at Rotman doing the leadership courses there.

I think the work I've done with Accreditation Canada, I've been in survey since 2004. Like there's been so many influences. And then also mentors. Like I was being mentored at times when I didn't even know I was being mentored. When you're young, you don't even realize it. But one of my mentors who's passed away now, Ross Savage, she worked with me at UHN and she was amazing. And there was a period where I actually moved to South America and she came, she found out I was coming back and she said, you're coming back. You're coming with me. So there was people along the way who really nudged me and said, I think you should think about this and this would be good for you. And having those people encourage you and really embrace you. I think like I definitely would not be where I am today or achieve what I have achieved if I didn't have those individuals backing me, plus very supportive family at home.

Philip De Souza: That's fantastic. That's a great journey. And next, my second question, it would just be revolve around, you talked a lot about sharing knowledge with others, not just at Safehaven but just your peers, but quite across the healthcare system, which is amazing. And at HIROC knowledge sharing is one of the, it's a cornerstone for us simply allowing those across the reciprocal to hear lessons learned from other subscribers and take those lessons learned and think about them and implement those at their organization. So they're scaling that knowledge. So what's one thing, someone who's listening to this podcast today, what's one thing they can do to start that culture of knowledge sharing and scaling those lessons learned at their organization or in their network of organizations who they may be partners with. What's one thing that you can think of that they can do today to like get that journey started?

Susan Bisaillon: Well, that's a really important question. And I think one of the things that I think that I've really gleaned over my career and even now is really understanding your value and your strengths. So really, I think everybody who comes to the table no matter who they are, what position they're in, everybody has something to offer. Everything has something that's valuable, that's teachable and more and more as you progress in your career, you've actually become quite gifted in some of these areas. So I think understanding what your value is, what your gift is, but also sharing, because when you share, you learn so much more. Like when I think about, again reflecting on recent years, just sharing what I know about, say a content, say about, it could be a procedure or even during the pandemic I learned so much more, like I never had exposure to youth justice or the violence against women shelter or sort of the anti-human trafficking and things that I had a piece of information that was very helpful to them.

But when we started imparting that information and part of that discussion, I learned so much more from them in terms of their environments and the things that they're exposed to and helping them translate that information in a way that was meaningful to them. So I think, what I would say is be free, be free with giving what you can give. I was never that type of person where I felt that I had, holding information is power. I think giving information is powerful. And I think really understanding that we all have our unique knowledge and value. So share liberally and share freely. And you will reap the rewards of that also in terms of partnerships and relationships and it'll help everybody's growth.

Philip De Souza: I love that you mentioned the gifted part. It's true each and every one of us has gifted in our own way. And we have this expertise that, and a voice that we should use and we should share when we feel comfortable in a way that makes, that shows the value we each have. So I appreciate that and I'll pass it back to you, Ellen, and for the lightning ground.

Ellen Gardner: I love that as a sort of personal motto, Susan, of share frequently and share freely is a great kind of manifesto or mission to follow in your life. So yes, great answers to those questions. Thank you. Okay. So we are moving into the lightning round and this is something you probably know about. We ask you just a few questions and then you just give us your answer in a couple of words or sentence. So my first question is what was your first job?

Susan Bisaillon: My first job was a nurse in St. Anthony, Newfoundland, working on an internal medicine ward that was also surgical and then from 12 midnight to 8:00 AM with psychiatry. So it was like a mix ward. And I had a great time up there in Northern Newfoundland working there.

Ellen Gardner: Do you play any musical instruments?

Susan Bisaillon: No, I don't play any instruments. I used to sing in my younger years in a choir.

Ellen Gardner: Might be something you come back to at some stage of your life.

Susan Bisaillon: Maybe when I have time.

Ellen Gardner: It sounds like your mom was a big influence in your life, but maybe you can tell us about the best advice you've ever received?

Susan Bisaillon: The notion of, and I think I've reflected on this in terms of just with education is giving back. I think that's part of what I'm doing right now. I really feel that many individuals spend a lot of their career in certain roles and stay there for a variety of reasons, security. But I think that looking at where I am today, I feel that I'm able to give back in a way in the nonprofit sector that is very impactful. I don't think I could have had the same impact in some other roles. So I think that notion of giving back, giving forward, sharing, working with others and partnering, I think that is probably one of the biggest things I've learned and I know that some of that, from that Newfoundland background, the partnership has really helped me over the years.

Ellen Gardner: If you could have lunch with someone, Susan, dead or alive, someone you admire and someone who you'd like to brainstorm with, who would that be?

Susan Bisaillon: I have to say, I am a bit of a political buff so I love sort of following, love the politics. When I think of even people like Michelle Obama, I'd love to have a conversation, love to have lunch with her. I'd love to have lunch with Hillary Clinton. So there's some, I really like when I think of strong women. Women who put themselves out there who are trailblazers. Those are people that I admire, like they're taking that first step and they're pushing it forward. So that would be sort of some of my choice people.

Ellen Gardner: And final question. If you had a message that you would be putting on a T-shirt or a billboard, what would that message be?

Susan Bisaillon: So I would say the message is going to be the message of our advocacy work, which is we all belong. We all belong. We all have differences. We all have abilities. And if I was to wear a T-shirt, I would put that on my T-shirt that we are all unique. We're all wonderful. And we all belong everywhere. So thinking about inclusion, we're working a lot on social inclusion, and I think breaking down some of the barriers and equities that exist in our system. I see some glimmers of hope, but we're not quite there in many respects, but I think breaking down some of the things that divide us and embrace the difference.

You see, there's so many things happening in the world and around us, that is very, it's disturbing. It's very disturbing to see what's happening in Europe with Ukraine, what happened last weekend in Buffalo, for those reasons, for people really embracing things that divide us. So my T-shirt would say we all belong, which is the advocacy work we're doing at Safehaven. We did that under the notion of really bringing forward messages about our vulnerable community, but I think that it really speaks to all of us.

Ellen Gardner: Susan, it's been wonderful speaking with you. Thank you so much for a great conversation.

Susan Bisaillon: Great. Thank you so much and have a great day.

Ellen Gardner: You have just been listening to our interview with Susan Bisaillon, CEO of the Safehaven Project for Community Living. For more information about HIROC and to listen to past episodes of Healthcare Change Makers, go to our website, hiroc.com. Thank you for listening.

Thank you for listening. You can hear more episodes of Healthcare Change Makers on our website HIROC.com and on your favourite podcasting apps. If you like what you hear, please rate us or post a review. Healthcare Change Makers is recorded by HIROC's Communications and Marketing team and produced by Podfly Productions. Follow us on Twitter at @hirocgroup or email us at communications@hiroc.com. We'd love to hear from you.