Episode 26: It takes a community with Emily Gruenwoldt, President & CEO of Children’s Healthcare Canada

Episode 26 with Emily Gruenwoldt, President and CEO of Children’s Healthcare Canada

As a young healthcare leader governing during a time of huge change and upheaval, Emily Gruenwoldt Carkner has learned to stay humble and “lean in like never before” to mentors, family and her network.

Show Summary

Today, Ellen Gardner and Philip De Souza, Communications and Marketing at HIROC, speak with Emily Gruenwoldt Carkner, President and CEO of Children’s Healthcare Canada.

Like many professional women, the usual pressures of leading two national associations, two young children at home, and staying healthy have been compounded for Emily Gruenwoldt during Covid-19. Fortunately, Emily and her husband were able to turn to a big community of support, but she’s not lost sight of the effect of those pressures on her team and so makes a point of doing individual check-ins.

The entire landscape around children’s healthcare has shifted, creating accessibility and equity issues for many, but Emily also sees the silver linings – notably, the rise in virtual care and the prospect of many more people being able to attend CHC’s (now) virtual conference in November. This event and the many other ways they’re finding to meaningfully interact with members Emily says have been game-changers for the organization.

Key Takeaways

  • (1:08) Why Emily chose to work in children’s health
  • (3:16) How Children’s Healthcare Canada has continued to provide virtual offerings to members
  • (4:20) The transition of the annual meeting and the opportunities that presents
  • (7:12) Great enthusiasm from CHC members around the rapid implementation of virtual care
  • (8:19) The pandemic has given us permission to innovate
  • (9:35) Why moving the dial on children’s health is going to take effort from health and other sectors
  • (10:17) Why the UNICEF Canada 14 report card is a call to action
  • (11:05) The collaboration of several organizations to create a new framework for the health and well-being status of children in Canada
  • (13:26) A role for everyone to participate in the project, We Can for Kids
  • (16:05) A unique opportunity to address mental health issue early and change the course for youth
  • (17:03) How Emily tunes into issues in hospitals and healthcare organizations around the country
  • (18:53) Coping with the biggest challenge of her professional career
  • (19:27) How the CHC team used best practices to stay in touch during Covid
  • (21:34) A memorable moment during the pandemic
  • (22:44) The crisis has given the team a new sense of purpose
  • (25:08) What has changed in Emily’s leadership style
  • (26:49) The value of Emerging Health Leaders in giving leaders a safe space to ask questions and build relationships with peers and senior leaders
  • (27:48) The value of having a “kitchen cabinet”

Mentioned in this Episode


Imagine you could step inside the minds of Canada's Healthcare Leaders, glimpse their greatest fears, strongest drivers, and what makes them tick. Welcome to Healthcare Change Makers, a podcast where we talk to leaders about the joys and challenges of driving change and working with partners to create the safest healthcare system.

Ellen Gardner: Good afternoon. I'm Ellen Gardner. Welcome to HIROC's podcast, Healthcare Change Makers. Today our guest is Emily Gruenwoldt, President & CEO at Children's Healthcare Canada. Children's Healthcare Canada is a national organization representing health delivery centres and systems serving children and youth. Emily is also the founder of Emerging Health Leaders, a network created to support the development of young health leaders across the country. Currently, there are more than 1000 members in the network. I want to start by asking you Emily, what propelled you to want to work in children's health?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Oh, my goodness. The opportunity was immediately appealing to me. I have a background in healthcare administration and even more specifically working for National Membership Associations. That provided me with some great context and experience from the business side, but really the chance to serve a community that focused on creating conditions for children in Canada to thrive, was super relevant to me as a mom and also compelling to me in terms of the opportunity to make a difference. I truly love my job. I look forward to going to work each day.

Ellen Gardner: Can you maybe tell us why it's still exciting for you, working in this field?

Emily Gruenwoldt: What excites me, I guess is the opportunity that we have to serve kids of today, but also to shape and contribute to what's the future going to look like for our country. Today's kids are tomorrow scientists, they're teachers or engineers or artists and how we choose to prioritize our policies and investments for children today really, I think to me speaks volumes to our values as a country. Our organization is working hard to advance the conversation about how kids need to be the priority, not only in a pandemic recovery, but even looking ahead and thinking about how are they a central focus for our government's vision that we just heard earlier this week about a bolder, healthier, more prosperous country.

Emily Gruenwoldt: It's a huge challenge. It's really intimidating. But it's also a paradigm shift from where we are today and I think that really excites me.

Ellen Gardner: Did you grow up knowing, yes, this is exactly what I want to do.

Emily Gruenwoldt: Oh gosh, no. Not at all. When I grew up, I wanted to be a lawyer. I actually applied to law school, spent a couple of weeks in a Law Program before a professor of mine from Queens University called, it was mid-September and he said, "Emily, I'm not sure what you're doing, but I thought about you when I saw this Program." It was the Health Admin Program and to me, it was just such a perfect blend of what I was really passionate about, which was healthcare, but also some of my background, which at the time was economics and health sciences. It was very happenstance but I've never looked back.

Ellen Gardner: How has your approach to connecting with your members evolved since COVID-19?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Good question. Children's Healthcare Canada has benefited from years of experience delivering value virtually to our members. Our most popular offering for many years has been our webinar program. We introduced this webinar program to disseminate best practices and new knowledge across our members. Any given week, we get anywhere from 200 to 400 child health leaders on these webinars and they've typically covered quite a broad range of issues.

With the advent of COVID that really gave us a new, I guess, laser like focus on our offerings to make sure that our members had access to the latest research or the latest approaches with respect to COVID and kids. It also gave us the chance to connect with hospital leaders around the world, which is something that we hadn't really done a lot of, to better understand how COVID was presenting in those jurisdictions, where they might be four to eight weeks ahead of us.

Emily Gruenwoldt: It was really a valuable opportunity for us to provide that knowledge and experience to our executive leaders in particular. Otherwise, the biggest shift for us, my goodness, like every other association it seems like, has been the transition of our annual meeting from what was a thriving face-to-face event to a virtual gathering now. Lucky for us, our meeting was scheduled for later in the fall, so we've had lots of opportunity to learn from others in their experience, transitioning their events and be able to implement those lessons learned to our events.

Depending on the day, it's a bit of a rollercoaster of emotions, but I really think that this could be a game changer for us and really give us the chance to reach an audience that might otherwise struggle to attend the event in-person, whether those are frontline healthcare providers or whether those are families. A virtual event is going to enable their participation, which is going to be exciting.

Ellen Gardner: You could imagine even more people attending it than might've been possible in a previous time when it was face-to-face but, in what other ways has your conference changed? How are you going to hold it this year virtually?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Literally almost everything has changed. It's almost a brand new event. We've moved from what was essentially a two-day in-person event to what's now going to be a week-long virtual conference. We've timed it so that it will culminate on International Children's Day on November 20th, which is really symbolic for us. I moved on lots of new things to make the event attractive and to make it accessible to our audience. For example, we partnered with CMA and Joule to offer a Physician Leadership Institute course, which is going to focus on leading during crisis. We're hosting an international tweet chat with folks at Healthcare Leader. I'm not sure if you're familiar with their tweet chats on a weekly basis.

The poster fair has been a highlight for so many of our delegates, so we're transitioning that to a virtual poster theatre, we're calling it and it's going to have guided tours of the posters by themes. What would typically be a highlight of our event are the hospital tours. Because we're not going to be in Saskatoon where we had planned, we've arranged with some of the facilities in Saskatchewan, in particular the Pattison Children's Hospital, to do virtual tours of their beautiful brand new hospital. It's going to be really, I think unique. It's a lot of net new for the team. A lot of change in terms of organizing a large scale event. But I think we're well on our way and looking forward to what will be an exciting week.

Ellen Gardner: It's tough to see an upside from the pandemic Emily, given how many people have succumbed to the illness and the job loss and just the whole impact on our economic system. But several months later, people have had time to reflect, maybe implement new processes and so, in your view, I'm just wondering, are there any ways that you think children's healthcare will improve as a result of the lessons learned through COVID?

Emily Gruenwoldt: With respect to clinical services specifically, we've seen the rapid implementation and innovations in virtual care and our members and the families that they serve, this has been met with just great enthusiasm. I don't know if you have kids, Ellen, but if my kids have a doctor's appointment or a desk appointment during the day, it means I'm taking hours out of my day to drive back to their school, drive them to their appointment.

Emily Gruenwoldt: I'm paying for parking, I'm sitting, I'm waiting in a waiting room somewhere, all for what seems like a pretty short engagement with the provider and then we're back on the road again. Imagine if you're a single mom or a single dad, or imagine if you're hauling other siblings to the appointment or imagine if you're taking transit or commuting hours to get to an appointment because you live outside of the urban center. Virtual health has really changed the game, I think for a lot of families, and I'm not suggesting that it's a panacea for what ails the health system. There's so many equity issues we still need to think through, but I think it's really changed how we deliver care throughout the pandemic context, but also for years to come. I think there's also examples where it feels as though the pandemic has given us permission to innovate in new ways.

Emily Gruenwoldt: For example, a virtual emergency department is a great example of something we never would have imagined months ago, and yet is a thriving solution that's meeting the needs for many families.

Ellen Gardner: Many Canadians think that we are in the top 10 when it comes to children's health and well-being, but in their 2010 Report Card, UNICEF found that Canada was actually right in the middle. They rank us 25th out of 41 wealthy nations when it comes to material well-being, education, housing, and environment. In some ways we've improved, there's progress on youth smoking and teen births but in other areas like youth obesity and cannabis use, we fall far behind. I wondered, what's your feeling on those results, Emily?

Emily Gruenwoldt: My feeling is that these results are really disappointing. Just a small point of correction, the rankings you spoke to are actually from the 2017 UNICEF Report Card. But nevertheless, Canada is a wealthy nation.

Emily Gruenwoldt: We have all the resources and expertise necessary to top these rankings and yet we've stagnated in this, what I would call the bottom of the pack position while other countries are leapfrogging us. I guess, moving the dial is going to take a lot of effort, not just from health, but from other sectors as well, so we think about education or social services, even justice when you think about some of the issues that you just described. There's lots of other countries that we can and should be learning from in some very simple or tangible decisions or investments we can make that would immediately improve our standing. The political will to do this, I think remains to be seen, but I'm hopeful that COVID and the pandemic actually will provide the reset we need to reflect on what our priorities are and start thinking about the longer term.

Ellen Gardner: Emily, I'm wondering if a new report card has come out since the 2017 card and what kind of results that report card had?

Emily Gruenwoldt: In fact, we just saw the release of the UNICEF Canada Report Card 14 in early September, and believe it or not, our standings now as a nation reflect the health and well-being of our children, ranks 30th out of 38 comparative countries internationally. Now, we can't compare Report Cards one over the other because some of the indicators change, but certainly the results continue to be disappointing with respect to children's physical health, so we're talking about immunizations, we're talking about healthy weights, etc. We're 30th out of 38, but with respect to mental health, we actually fall to 31st out of 38 countries. Definitely a call to action.

Actually as a result of this most recent Report Card, Children's Healthcare Canada is involved in a new collaboration. We're working with the Canadian Institutes of Health Research and specifically the Institute of Human Development, Child and Youth Health, as well as UNICEF Canada and the Pediatric Chairs of Canada.

Emily Gruenwoldt: We decided it wasn't enough to call on the government to solve the woes of children across this country. It's not enough to ask them to influence policy and investment, but rather that we as organizations have a role to play as well and so we are. WHO's sponsoring this new initiative and the goal is really to develop a common framework where together we can co-design, co-create priorities that we believe will influence the health and well-being status of children in Canada. The goal is really a very inclusive engagement process where we're going to work with organizations across different sectors. We have reached out to folks in the education sector, social services' sector, justice sector, to be involved in the project and help us to think about what are the broader determinants of children's health and well-being and how can we start to create some synergy across these priorities and across our organization.

Emily Gruenwoldt: We're not working towards competing purposes, right? We have a finite number of resources available to us, and wouldn't it be incredible if we identified common priorities and we worked together to advance these goals in a meaningful way. At the end of the day, at the end of the project, we're really hoping that we'll have priorities that will inform children's health research, that will help us to advance healthcare service delivery, training of our future healthcare providers, but also policies that we hope it will support children's health and well-being.

It's a really ambitious project, but we've had terrific response in the early days. We're about a third of the way into the project now and the enthusiasm and momentum is significant. We're really hoping to harness this energy and the desire to work more collaboratively, to result in more measurable improvement in children's health outcomes.

Ellen Gardner: For the people who are listening to this, is there any suggestions you can offer or anything you'd say in ways that they can help in terms of moving this project forward?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Absolutely. WeCANforKids, which is the name of the project, the desired framework that's going to emerge with the series of priorities. We're really hoping that organizations across the continuum, across different sectors who serve children will identify a priority that resonates with their strategy within the scope of the work that they do day-to-day, and they can help to contribute towards this collaborative effort, so whether those are individual hospital or healthcare delivery organizations, whether those are other associations serving children, there is a role for everyone, we believe. Reach out to me personally or visit our website, www.wecanforkids.ca, to get involved. There's lots of opportunity.

Ellen Gardner: One of the areas where CHC pays a lot of attention is around mental health services for children, and you are always pushing for improved services in that area for children and youth. How are you and your partners addressing that?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Delays in access for health services, whether physical or mental are a growing concern for our community. I think if we're speaking about children's mental health services in particular, the delays are unacceptable, period. While there's increasing awareness and acceptance that mental health is health, we still don't fund mental health services to the same extent that we fund physical health services across this country. There are exceptions, but by and large it is under-funded compared to our physical health services.

As we start thinking about navigating in conversation about, how do we make kids a priority, how do we build back better? We need to think about how do we scale urgent or emergent crisis services for kids. We need to think about how we expand accessibility of counseling or psychotherapy, and even the number of very specialized programs and services for our kids. This was actually a key recommendation in the Children's Healthcare Canada pre-budget consultation submission we just delivered a couple of weeks ago to the Federal Finance Committee and certainly part of a larger conversation we want to have around enhancing timely and equitable access to kids' health services in the months to come.

Ellen Gardner: There's certainly been a lot of intention around the need for better mental health services in general, for the general population. Do you feel positive that at least there's increased light being shined on the need for these services and that children and youth really are an important population that need those services?

Emily Gruenwoldt: They sure are. The statistic would suggest that 70% of mental health or substance abuse disorders begin in childhood, right? We have this unique opportunity to address an issue early and to really change the life course for that child or youth, which is a really significant statement. There are many stakeholders across the country working or advocating to improve awareness of what the challenges are and to identify unique solutions, and we were speaking about virtual care earlier, there's a really unique opportunity to leverage technology, to get these services out into the community and closer to these children and youth, whether they're at home or they're at school. Lots of great work to come, some great momentum to build on.

Ellen Gardner: As a CEO and as a leader, sometimes you're a little bit removed from what's going on on the ground. I'm wondering how you stay in touch with the people and the developments and all the innovation that's happening in hospitals in different healthcare organizations around the country. What do you do?

Emily Gruenwoldt: There's a few different channels that we tap into on a regular basis. I'm lucky that my Board of Governors at Children's Healthcare Canada is made up of senior hospital leaders from across the continuum of care in Canada. I have all of my children's hospitals represented on my Board, and that certainly gives me great line of sight into that acute care environment. We also have folks who are in rural health. We have a family partner, we have folks who are in large community hospitals, so that really helps me to tune into what are the challenges or what are those emerging issues that they're seeing from their position. We also have a thriving family network. We have lots of networks focused on specific patient populations that regularly convene at Children's Healthcare Canada virtually of course. That definitely helps us to stay abreast of what those challenges, issues, opportunities are.

Ellen Gardner: Did Children's Healthcare Canada have a Work from Home philosophy before the pandemic hit? I'm just wondering, how has full-time working from home impacted your employees and affected your organizational culture?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Funny story, we certainly did have some experience. Fortuitously, our team had recently moved into a brand new office space that we spent months retrofitting, and so we had been working at home for a period about four or five months just right before COVID. When COVID struck, it was easy to jump back into the routine of, how do we do this? How do we stay connected remotely? I think what was a game changer for some folks on our team obviously was, now trying to toggle working from home full-time with, for some, what was full-time parenting or caregiving of siblings or parents. That was a bit of a wrinkle or a new nuance for sure.

Emily Gruenwoldt: Speaking very personally, the last six months that's been one of the biggest challenges I think I've had in my professional career – leading two national associations with two young kids at home and trying to keep them engaged and focused and off their devices, right? My husband and I both working full-time really needed to lean into with our community of support, so whether that was our parents or whether that was our close neighbours or friends and thankfully, it does take a community to raise children and COVID has demonstrated that. But in terms of the culture of the team, we did a lot of the, I guess, what you're seeing as best practices, right? We convene every morning for a huddle. We share what the day ahead looks like and what we're working on.

Emily Gruenwoldt: It's really been helpful, I think, to see visually through technology platforms like Zoom, which keeps you feeling more connected than perhaps emails or chat messages do.

Ellen Gardner: Yes, I can certainly understand the challenge of children at home and managing a full-time career and your husband the same and of course, maintaining morale in your own organization amongst employees who were facing similar kinds of pressures, and so everybody's had to do this massive adjustment. How did you help your staff keep their spirits up and just stay focused on the goals of the organization?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Children's Healthcare Canada is, we're a pretty small team. There's 10 of us when we all, I was going to say show up in the office, but I guess that's not the right analogy. But we are a small enough group that we have pretty strong relationships amongst the team, and so it's really just being attentive and understanding what's going on in the background for everyone who's showing up. I referenced that we use Zoom in daily huddles, and you really get a sense of how folks are doing. We introduced some, I don't know, some quirky additions to our team meetings, even just a joke of the day which they've proven to be real groaners, but it just starts the morning and the dialogue off with a smile.

Emily Gruenwoldt: I think it's really served to help the morale of the team. For me personally, there are days where you just think, and I'm sure others in the not-for-profit world do too about, are we going to survive this pandemic? But then on the other side of the coin, as we spoke about earlier, there's new and really exciting ways to serve our members in new and really meaningful ways.

Emily Gruenwoldt: It's an interesting challenge to balance those emotions and to keep your eye on everything that's going well, and there is so much that's going well. I had one of the most memorable moments I suppose, of the pandemic so far for me personally was, when one of my CEOs, a hospital CEO, he sent me a note, probably, I'm going to say mid-May. He just shared how valuable our association was to him personally, but also to his team throughout this pandemic. I mean, that was mid-May, and it was all about delivering just-in-time information that was impacting how they were serving their patients throughout COVID. In the background, of course, he didn't see us scrambling to pull all these different webinars together, all this different information together, but to get that reassurance that at the other end, people really valued these products and services and were noticing how much effort we were putting into making sure that they had that reliable information.

Emily Gruenwoldt: There's been a lot of uncertainty, I think, throughout the pandemic but at the same time, some really great leadership lessons and leadership experiences that will stick with me for many years to come, I'm sure.

Ellen Gardner: Well, do you think that through it all and getting positive feedback from your partners that they really appreciate what you're doing, do you think that that's changed the whole purpose of the organization in some way?

Emily Gruenwoldt: I think it has re-ignited sort of the motivation that the team feels, like there's a new sense of purpose when they're delivering this value and they're getting that feedback, especially in what has been in the crisis of COVID. I think it's really brought us together as a team and it really helps us to get over the hurdles that exist when you're working from home and when there's lots going on in the background.

Emily Gruenwoldt: I think it's been a really important motivator and a really important opportunity to keep our eye on what we're all here to do, which is improving health outcomes for kids, but also serving our members as a member-based organization.

Ellen Gardner: I'm wondering Emily, if this experience has changed the way you relate to your employees and if you've learned things about your employees, and maybe they've learned about you during this time just, maybe through having more frequent conversations or talking about things that are more, that are closer to your heart or that are closer to your personal life.

Emily Gruenwoldt: It's really interesting, isn't it? I find in many ways we have probably grown closer and tighter as a team, simple things like we talked about the Zoom huddle. You have a window suddenly into their home life and whether that's the physical space or whether that's the Golden Retriever walking around in the background, or whether that's a four-year-old coming to ask for help with something. You really see the bigger person behind the employee who's at the desk beside you.

Emily Gruenwoldt: I think it has resulted in stronger relationships and just the chance to share more personal information about one another whether intentionally or unintentionally, and our team has in different ways, individually struggled through the pandemic and it's been really great to see how we have rallied around one another to support them through whatever that personal struggle has been, and so that is absolutely a silver lining associated with working from home, working remotely in the pandemic. It's really getting to know we're a team in a very much more intimate way.

Ellen Gardner: For you personally Emily, what are some lessons you've learned or something surprising you've discovered about yourself that has changed the way you lead?

Emily Gruenwoldt: I think it's being humble and recognizing how quickly circumstances can change or evidence can change in COVID. What was true last week is no longer true today in many cases. This whole back to school debate for kids is just fascinating to watch both as a parent, but also as a healthcare leader and also as someone who's trying to disseminate timely, accurate information, and a pandemic of this magnitude has really been a chance to sit back and reflect on values, reflect on what my role is as a leader in terms of supporting my team and supporting our members. It is groundbreaking for me, and it's a great leadership experience to have at this point in my career.

Ellen Gardner: You've long been an advocate and a driver of change for young healthcare leaders. You were actually behind the development of a grassroots network called Emerging Health Leaders. What advice do you give to leaders who are struggling how to make the best decisions when the information coming at them is changing all the time?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Thank you for asking. This is one of my favorite topics. The reality is that we're in this period of time where rapid generation of knowledge, knowledge creation, information dissemination, it's just impossible to keep up with, and not only is it hard to keep up with, the creation of this knowledge, there's also now questions about the validity of the information that we're consuming, right? I think for what that means for young leaders, is that we need to lean into our networks and our mentors, perhaps like we never have before. I think the value that Emerging Health Leaders provides is, it gives our young leaders a safe space, a safe environment where they can test their leadership. They can explore their values, they can ask questions, they can build relationships with peers and with senior leaders who, in my experience, we're always wanting to spend time and invest in the next generation of leaders.

Emily Gruenwoldt: The health sector is so amazing like that, it's second to none in my opinion. At this time there's a lot more questions than there are answers. I think the value of mentors and having the confidence that you can trust and feel safe to ask questions is just so important. Like I said, I don't know a senior leader who doesn't want to spend time answering some of those questions that the emerging leaders might have.

Ellen Gardner: Have you had someone or maybe a couple of people that you've been able to lean on?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Yeah. Absolutely. I remember at one point in my previous role at the Canadian Medical Association, I served a director who was focused on physician leadership development and one of the programs I had the opportunity to attend talked about creating a ‘kitchen cabinet’, so it's this idea of sitting around your kitchen, who are those folks that you would just like to have a drink with or a coffee with, and what would you talk about – who are those people who would make you feel safe to ask those kind of awkward or clunky questions? That really resonated with me and so, it's sort of been my mission to think about who are those folks who are around my ‘kitchen cabinet’ and gosh, what a valuable resource they have been.

Ellen Gardner: I think we're going to move into the Lightning Round. Here, I'm just going to throw a few questions at you and don't think too much about the answers. Just tell me what pops into your head right away. I'm going to ask what you're reading right now?

Emily Gruenwoldt: I have a stack of what I would call popular fiction on my bedside table that from time to time I binge but, lately I've been rereading The Social CEO. If my husband were here, he would tell you I spent a significant amount of time on Twitter. I find it fascinating, this book really tells a story of how other CEOs are embracing social channels to connect and influence others and I love that. I eat it up.

Ellen Gardner: When travel opens up again, where do you plan to go first?

Emily Gruenwoldt: I miss Vancouver? I'd love to get back to the mountains and the ocean.

Ellen Gardner: What's a surprising thing that most people don't know about you?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Probably that I'm a country girl. I grew up in rural Ottawa, about an hour outside of the city and even today, nothing restores me like getting back to the country, getting out into the forest. I really miss it.

Ellen Gardner: What's one thing you've learned or one skill you've honed in 2020?

Emily Gruenwoldt: Probably how to find the quietest corners in my house where I can hide and have 10 minutes just to myself, whether it's for just a private phone conversation or just to get away from the buzz of activity. I think that's probably my new super skill.

Ellen Gardner: I want to thank you, Emily, for talking with us today. It was just a pleasure hearing how you've been doing the past few months. We wish you all the best with your conference.

Emily Gruenwoldt: Thank you so much. We're so thrilled HIROC has joined us again for the conference this year. I look forward to “seeing you there”.

Ellen Gardner: Okay. Good.

Emily Gruenwoldt: Those were air quotations!

Thank you for listening. You can hear more episodes of Healthcare Change Makers on our website HIROC.com and on your favourite podcasting apps. If you like what you hear, please rate us or post a review. Healthcare Change Makers is recorded by HIROC's Communications and Marketing team and produced by Podfly Productions. Follow us on Twitter at @hirocgroup or email us at communications@hiroc.com. We'd love to hear from you.